my associations (A la recherche du temp perdu)

English as a Second Language Playground
1

Hello, today my husband is 77 years-old. He was born : 04. Februry.1935.
In the morning when we were having breakfast I told him:
-Happy birthday!!!
He told me.
-When I was born it was similar cold like than now. My poor Mum told me that the midwife arrived in the last minute to assistance of my birth. Then the birth with only a midwife wasn’t a punishable offence.

  • Oh yes -I told -in those days 99% of newborns came into the world with assistance a midwife.
    -Oh dear! It occurred to me Marcsa -did you know her, do you remember?- she was a midwife and she washed the dead persons. Her job was the birth and the death.
  • Do you remember when my father died she came to wash him.
    She was an ugly old peasant woman.
  • Do you remember that she was very proud that she washed my dead father with alcohol and called us to watch my father that he looked if he slept. Of course it wasn’t true and we saw only my motionless dead father.We were inconsolable.
    -Do you remember that after the funeral my mum began to offer our house for sale. Because her three children lived in the capital, and she came after us. Our house very quickly had been sold. And my Mum began to move. Marcsa came to Budapest to help my mother with the moving.
  • I remember the first day we cooked the lunch together. We were sitting at the table and I saw the Marcsa looked at me how I was peeling the potatoes.
    -“How do you peel the potatoes?” -snarled at me. “Look !” And she showed me that she peeled the potatoes that she could peel only the skin.
    -“You have to peel them carefully, you waste the potatoes!”
    I’ve never seen anybody to peel potatoes with so special knowledge. I remember it for life.

My husband birthday party will be tomorrow because the children come home on Sunday. We were shopping every kind of food and champagne. It will be a good diner and a birthday cake! We have been living together since January 1962 if we had got married than we would have celebrated our golden wedding, but we had to get married - for my parents’ request - only in April 1963. But it would be another story.

2

Happy Birthday to your husband, Kati!
Is that a recent photograph? You both look very well.

3

Many thanks, Dear Bez. I will tell him tomorrow your best wishes. He is still today 77 but tomorrow will be over 77. Incredible.
This photo had been taken in August 2011. We were tanned , so we look better than usually. Luckily his illness doesn’ t written on his face,
Bless regards:
Kati

4

We were having our breakfast and we were chatting.

-It’s very cold today.-I said to my husband.
-Yes, and there will be colder and colder- I’ve read on my laptop.
-How long will the cold weather last? -What do you know?
-There is a pessimistic weather forecast they say up until March.
-When I used to be child every winter was so cold. I remember that we went sledging. We didn’t have waterproof shoes so when we arrived home soaking wet. Our shoes and wool-socks were damp and iced. Our granny put onto the floor two big basins she put cold water in the one and hot water in the other. We had to put our feet into them and to change alternately. While we did this she added hotter and hotter water to the hot water in the basin. I remember that in the end it was so hot that we found strange how it is possible that we could adapt ourselves this really hot water.In the meantime she gave us a mug of hot tea. In spite of every preventive measures my sister’s feet had second degree trench foot.

The other what occurred to me that our town was on the Great Plain. So we never went to ski there wasn’t anywhere possibility but we liked very much to slide. The whole town was full of shorter and longer slides and we went in the street we can slide everywhere. We learned to skate but my parents didn’t buy new skates when we grew out of our old ones.

I became a professional slider and when I used to be student in my college -I remember - it was an excursion for the class and there I saw the longest slider in my life. If you wanted to slide on it you had to start off at a run from a distance of 100 meters if you wanted to slide to the end. Those who didn’t dare to run up they slow down and they stopped on the middle of the slider.
I didn’t want to show off but for me it was a piece of cake to slide till the end.I learned very well to slide in my home town.

And of course we spoke about the village where my husband was born. It was a dusty village but the river Tisza was beautiful. When I first went to see the village the house where he was born it still existed. Since it had been knocked down.

Even in the socialism the river Tisza had been dammed up and made an artificial lake. Today it is a water-paradise. The village became a little town. Few years ago my husband was given the freedom of Abádszalók. He lived with his family in this village from his birth till the age of six years-old, but the people keep him in evidence.

5

Dear Ms. Kati Svaby,

My belated birthday wishes to your husband. You two make a handsome couple. You both have Venus sign on you.

And you smile like a Venus. Wonderful.

kind regards.

kyaw

6

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If I had mentioned our wedding I say why it took place on the 3th April.
My husband is a painter. When my parents got to know that I live together with a painter who just graduated from Budapest Fine Art Academy, my poor father who was a very good lawyer asked me:
-Do you want to get married to a painter?
-Yes - I told him.
-Are you fully aware of what you are doing? Does he have a flat? Where do you want to live? Does he have any income? How do you want to make ends meet? Do you aware of living together with a painter you have to lead a life of poverty?
He was desperate.
I tried to console him.
-Lajos applied for a scholarship and if he obtained it he would receive 3000 forints in every month during three years.(Those time in Hungary the average wage was 1300 Ft.)
-When will you get to know whether he received this scholarship.
-On the 15th March. And even when he was a student he handed in a request for a flat with studio in Dunaújváros and it is sure that he will get this flat on the 1st. April.

I remember on this detail and I remember even that we wanted to get our marriage in January and my father asked me that to wait till April, when you are sure that he obtained this scholarship. (This scholarship name was Derkovics-scholarship for the students who went to Academy of Fine Arts or to the School of Arts and Crafts)

My husband was obliged to work in every summer because his family was poor. He worked in Dunaújváros .This town had been building during the socialism, with a factory, ironworks.Its first name was Stalin -town. After Stalin’s death it received this name.

So my Father began to plan our marriage. He had a new suit made for my fiancé,(our engagement was in December 1962) bought a spring coat to him, and a Doxa wrist watch. My sister used to be a sewing maid and she and her master sewed a beautiful wedding dress to me.

It was a big wedding in a posh restaurant. He invited our relatives and my husband’s relatives and some friends. Who wasn’t invited for the dinner they received an invitation card to the church. I remember the church was full of people.

After the marriage we were honeymooning in our brand new flat. Of course the flat was furnished and equipped with everything what a new household needs. My parents arranged everything for us.

In May my belly became bigger. Then I told my parents that I was expecting a baby. As they looked at my belly I saw the penny dropped .
-Are you in your which month?
-In the second month.
-Don’t tell a lie.
-I am in my forth month.-I said

After this they lost heart. Why didn’t say to us? What a shame! If you had said to us we would have refused our consent.And they ruminated what to do.

My husband was unable to understand them.

  • Why didn’t they say that they were very happy that they would have their first grandchild.

At last they told us if the baby will be born we have to say that she arrived earlier and she is a premature baby.

Of course they were very happy when my daughter was born and this little baby was able to have their old fashioned ideas changed.

In defence of them I can say : Luckily times have changed since 1963.
The Latin proverb is immortal : O tempora, o mores !

7

Dear Mr. Kyaw

Many thanks for your best wishes. I told my husband. It wasn’t belated the best wishes are never belated.
Now I am trying to tell what:
“I can’t tell anyone,
Hence I tell everyone.”

Regards:
Kati

8

Dear Ms. Kati Svaby,

My pleasure, my lady.

Your wedding photo is just like a still shot of a scene from a film. Really lively. And charming.

I think I still can say Congratulations. lol.

And I found genuine richness in the story of your past poor life. Time and fate command and control us, it’s subtle to perceive.

And we become the victims of our own misperceptions.

kind regards.

kyaw.

9

Dear Mr. Kyaw,

Is it possible that I can’t describe my life? What happened it was good for me, but not for my parents who lived in a world which was a hypocritical world. For them it was very important what the people spoke about them. The appearance was most important than sincere life. This was the moral in those time. Now I think they should have been happy that their daughter found her couple. And this thing had been justified. More than 50 years together and most of our days was unclouded.

I could do that I don’t care about my father’s wish but it was alien to my nature. Today’s children and me also are other. For example my daughter got married that they didn’t say a word to us. They went to the register office with two witnesses and got married. After they came to our place with a great bunch of flowers and they said : we got married. I was a very little sad because my dream about my daughter’s wedding came to nothing but in few minutes we spoke about everything.

We were more elastic than the American parents. They didn’t come to terms with this marriage without wedding and when they went to the U.S. they arranged a great wedding with about 100 guests because the father of my son-in-law was the director of a great college, and they needed a great wedding than my father needed in those days.They didn’t deal with they want a wedding or not. It was important for them what this authority demands.

We loved each other and my husband - though he didn’t understand me why I allowed to my parents to interfere in our affairs. But he loved me so much that he accepted this from me.

It is characteristic of me that I wrote the problems also, but for us it was beautiful till today.

Could you please what did you think when you wrote " misperception?" Really, I know what is perception but I don’t know misperception. Could you please to tell me.

Regards:
Kati

10

Dear Ms. Kati Svaby.

Thank you and I can read your love in your reply.

I chose and used the word " misperception as I almost always write my writings with my soul. So I have to give way to the readers and the other writers a wide range of scopes for their own perceptions and understandings. For I always respect other feelings and imaginations. I love the freedom in it.

Writing grammars and writing topics are a world different, I believe. You can write a topic without grammar, if you have a learned soul, I assume.

Grammatically, misperception is most like misunderstanding, but I don’t mean exactly like that.

As I said it’s my own style, idiomatic or rather psychotic kind of writings.

I love to write and read between the lines since I can see more freedom and wisdom in it.
And I teach my students and juniors to be a free thinkers. I don’t want to see them being clones and the clones to be.

Free thinkers in a custody can surely be independent leaders in the future. A clone with a master degree will always be a clone with a robe. No more than that.

kind regards.

They say giving is better than receiving. There are some truth in it.

11

Hello Mr. Kyaw,

I hope that you don’t take it in bad part that I copied the letter that i wrote to you this morning.It is important for me that if somebody want to have free will this doesn’t mean that we are not able to make compromises .In my life i made several compromises but i tried to keep my free will. COMPLICATED BUT TRUE.

Dear Mr .Kyaw,

Many thanks for both of letters. Your style very misterious. There are sentences which really let the readers think about it. To write a topic is a great dare to people who enjoy the good literature . I enjoyed. My favorite writer : Albert Camus: The stranger but of course there are even more. But there is the saying that if you went in a desert island which book you would take with you. I am sure that I chose this one.

You are right that there are books which give you different aspects when you read it. Camus could write this miracle with everyday words but not everyday conclusion. You wrote me about the free will. In this novel the idea of FREE WILL is dominant. When somebody is unable to correspond to the petty social conventions what the society demand from you, you will be a stranger than in Camus 'novel and the stranger will be punished with death penalty.
Yes, We have to live with these petty social conventions.
I know to write isn’t a piece of cake. I don’t win laurels with these topics. I hope that after my death my children will find it and then they can read what I couldn’t tell them.
Nothing more.

Regards:
Kati Svaby

12

Dear Ms. Kati Svaby,

Thank you very much for you kind compliments on my writings. I’ll never have such bad feelings towards you.

Compromise and rationalize are the very words I’ve learnt when I was into and in the business world, my own and as a hired hand. ( When I was a diplomat our mantra is Result Orientation )
There are the words to adapt or adjust the things against your wish, will or standard.

I tell you, I used to work as a general manager for a world class Japanese Stuffed Toys PLC. for six years. Japanese are so sensitive with the quality standard. They invented the word Zero defects. I, myself strongly believe in zero defects concept.

But in reality, when we manufacture things with standardized Japanese technology here in Burma, we never achieved that zero defects. So what we have to do is we have to compromise it to an acceptable quality level , what we call it AQL. That makes me sick. But we managed to do business with AQLs and made some million bucks. Mission was completed.

What I’ve learnt out of it is -there is complete perfection- but you only can achieve it in its original environment which is totally conducive to it. Otherwise you’ll have to accept the FACTS, like AQL. In order to completed the mission.

I hear US Marines say they don’t plan, but they improvise. I love this concept for some cases. Particularly, when things are operational. Rather than strategical.

Briefly, we sometimes have to go against our wishes, in which we lay our subjective egos which we later bring out as if our objectives, when we do things and deal with the others. So It can never reach its perfection, as my example above. We can only have high AQL or low AQL. And we cannot be sorry or regret about it. But let it go for the sake of every things and the environment which is not so conducive to us as we have expected. And we can have some little smiles?

Well, set zero defects, but accept AQL and live lovely.

In terms of my writings I sometimes think I know things to zero defects, but this is only my ego. So I always write between the lines to avoid insulting others’ egos. To complete the mission. So my writings can be mysterious as you think. Since Ego is naturally mystery.

kind regards.

kyaw.

I wrote this to encourage your “My Associations”, which is full of human things. All sweet or bitter tastes are in there. That I experessed as Richness. I have no wonders you write it. Lovely!

13

Dear Mr Kyaw,

I begin a quote from your letter: „I’ll never have such bad feelings towards you."
You explain me ‘why’.
I was very happy with your letters. Chiefly my word ’compromise’ gave some of your associations when you used to work as a general manager for a world class Japanese Stuffed Toys PLC. Japanese invented the word Zero defects. you, yourself strongly believe in zero defects concept. (it’s very interesting from you)

Compromise is for me an associaton when I used to learn in psychology in my college and not the very words you’ve learnt when you were into and in the business world, your own and as a hired hand.

‘Will and standard’. Standard with zero deffects.
There in Burma, you never achieved that zero defects. An acceptable quality level , what you call it AQL. If you see that you don’t accomplish acceptable quality level AQL that makes you sick.(We agree in that, we can be perfect any time.)
Sometimes have to go against our wishes, ( I agree) in which we place our subjective egos which we later bring out as if our objectives, when we do things and deal with the others.(I agree.)

So it can never reach its perfection, as your example above. ( if we speak about our ego I don’t believe its perfection; excuse me but I repeat myself) We can only have high AQL or low AQL. And we cannot be sorry or regret about it. But let it go for the sake of every things and the environment which is not so conducive to us as we have expected. And we can have some little smiles? (sure!)

Many thanks for the consolent words: Well, set zero defects, but accept AQL and live lovely. Do you say to me: try to be perfect but it doesn’t manage to you,make the best of it. (I hope you don’t think ‘make the best of it’ means 'make a compromise with sb/sth?)
Do you think I could replace the word of ’compromise’ with the ’AQL’?

Dear Kyaw. I am get to used the words ’compromise ’ and I believe there isn’t life without compromise. We make compromises every day.But I understand you. Aren’t you so idealistic? More than me?

But of course I understand your chain of ideas.
I liked your letter. Hear always the other half !!!

Regards:
Kati

P.S:This is a Albert Camus quote:
Love cannot accept what it is. Everywhere on earth it cries out against kindness, compassion, intelligence, everything that leads to compromise. [u]Love demands the impossible, the absolute, the sky on fire, inexhaustible springtime, life after death, and death itself transfigured into eternal life.

14

Does it exist true will?
My answer: YES.

Quote from one of my earlier letters. How to call this mother’s will if not free will.She wasn’t pressed to do it she did from her own free will.

"My husband’s family was a poor family, but they loved each other. My mother-in-law had been converted to protestant when she got married. But in the WW II her brother with his wife and her sister with her husband and two adult clever children never came home (6 persons) from the concentration camps.They had been killed we don’t know in which camp.
If I saw a pictures of them I have to cry and I can’t answer the question. Why? They were simple poor people, worked from dawn till night but they sent their two children to the University. I didn’t know them but still my mother-in-law lived she liked to tell me her memories about her relatives.

She became a very broken person.She had eternaly remorse that she couldn’t save them. But it was impossible. Even the Christian couldn’t hide Jewish because if it found out the Christian paid with his own life. Despite of this there were people who thought, it is more important to be helpful than to fear of death penalty. Of course not many, but not few.

[b]My husband’s cousin survived because her 13 year-old friend’s mother gave her own daughter’s christian papers to her. Imagine a mother who risks her own single daughter’s life for that they could save another 13 year-old girl’s life. If the police had found out the fake papers, both girls and the mother would have been killed.

I don’t know that I could have been able to give my daughter’s paper to a Jewish girl and to know with my good deed I could risk my own daughter’s life. [/b]

This is an example when somebody is able to execute her free will.

15

Dear Mr. Kyaw,

An SMS woke me up at 5 and I couldn’t asleep again. So I was reading this thread. I have to reveal that in this early morning I understood very clearly you. I understood what means misperception, high AQL and low AQL. It would be good to live our life with low AQL, accepted nobody could be perfect -at most the Japanese Stuffed Toys Company PLC. Am I right?
My problem that I have more assossiciations this moment and I can’t choose. But no matter " All roads lead to Rome."

Regards:
Kati Svaby

16

After the 3rd April 1963 we began our common life. We left the wedding-dinner and the guests in the restaurant because we wanted to spend our first night in the new flat in D. town. When we arrived home in Budapest to change our cloths, we could difficultly open the door because behind the door there was a pile of pictured telegrams for us that the postman threw in. We very quickly scanned them but this little time was enough that we missed our last bus to D. town. What to do? My parents and my sister and brother wanted to stay in this flat so we had to go somewhere. We went to a hotel near-by. They asked our identity card (of which only the name was identity card, it was like a notebook with every kind of data. ). My husband was already registered in D. town but I was still a resident of Budapest. Don’t forget, it still was socialism in Hungary with its strange laws. Nobody would have wondered if we had found out there was thought police also. (But today more million people weep for those days of secure job.)

When the receptionist saw that I am a resident of Budapest she said to me:” resident of Budapest couldn’t stay in the hotel.” We saw that the hotel could be empty because the keys were hung on. We began to tell our story from the beginning till the end. In the socialism the clerks had a great power. She looked up in my “identity card” whether our marriage was really that day (the date was registered also in it of course) and she took pity on us and broke the law and we could spend our night in this hotel.
This wasn’t characteristic of the officials they liked to abuse of their authority and to give to the people hard time. So it was an exception. If I were suspicious I should say our common life had made a good start.

Next day we went to D. town. A brand new flat with an atelier ( in those time every people could get a free flat after a waiting period) As I told earlier that my husband as a student worked every summer in this new socialist town, he heard that he would want to build three flats with atelier and he applied for one. In the autumn of 1962 he got a letter that one of the three flats he would receive. Immediately we went to look at it. It was even under building. I have to admit that I was disappointed because there wasn’t an intimate part in this town. Everything was artificial. Lajos was sad because I told him this town very strange for me.

So on the 4th April we arrived to our brand new flat what was already arranged with my parents’ and grand parents’ old stylish furniture. It was very familiar for me. It was a single place in this strange town which was intimate. In 1963 most of the people tried to rid of old furniture. The fashion was the modern, cheap and of poor quality furniture.

Now I become sad when I remember that great pleasure how my grandmother gave to us her Welsh dresser made of hardwood and old glass cabinet and she wanted to give to us the oval table with six chairs covered with leather but we didn’t accepted because our new flat would have become a furniture depository. But without this two pieces of furniture her dining-room ( what was her most beautiful room) seemed to me empty .And I never will forget that my grandma was about in the same age than I am now, she didn’t sting to her objects. Today I understand her.

17

Hello,

Somebody made me impiously an object of derision. This made me bad-tempered and unpleasant. Chiefly I regretted why I began to write my associations here. Thank Goodness, the help arrived which could console me.

“I am sorry that there are still guys who have not yet nurtured into human and has remained a mere speaking animal all their life and are due live their life out in this disgusting approach, and I am again sorry that why the founders of this site allow that type of defamatory posts and showcase them even for a short while. They need to be there and check whatever is posted or else the site would resemble a state of anarchy where those evil-minded individuals tarnish other’s reputation. Considering all what I stated if I were you I wouldn’t treat them back the way they have done to me I would forgive them and this is what makes me feel great and let me enjoy having peace of mind. You are great dear Kati and shouldn’t bother yourself worry about other’s remarks, let them die in this stupid and preposterous world they have built for themselves and by keeping silent and forgiving you help them feel sorry.”

Many thanks, MY FRIEND that you gave back my belief and I could forgive them who made me ridiculous.

18

When I became pregnant everybody told me:
-Do you have any idea that a child takes up all your time.
-Oh what about do you speak about? I can take her everywhere. It will be good! No problem.
I didn’t know really that a baby not a doll. All my life I dreamt about that I will have children. I don’t know how long I was religious, I remember than a teeny I was religious and I asked God if I am sinful not punish me with not giving me children.
I was third-year student in my college. After our marriage I transferred to a correspondence student. My father was a Doubting Thomas.
-You 'll never finish your college study.
This hurt me and I never forgot his scepticism and then I knew that I would finish at any price.
My daughter was born the 28th October 1963
.
During our spring and summer our life was free and unbound. The Danube is very good at D.town. Its a stagnant water because a dead end of the Danube. Its riverside was sandy. The town was on a plateau of sand. ( that’s why by now some buildings became uninhabitable, because they wanted slide into the Danube.) From this plateau there is stairs down to the Danube. It has 265 steps. For a pregnant it was easy go down but up; my husband had to push my hip. I didn’t want to do it but he stuck to it.
There was a Swedish film: Hon dansade en sommar. (1951) English title: One Summer of Happiness. Our summer reminded me this film. We were really very happy. Our friends came to visit us. I was sunbathing that I made a hole in the sand to my belly and I was lying on my front.

I was shocked when my husband told me that his life isn’t this what we lived so far, he was looking forward to painting. He explained me when he is painting, I had to keep myself busy and I must not disturb him because when he is painting he needs the solitude. Strange though it may appear but it was so true and really our life was dogged by great tact when he was painting.

In September I began to teach. I received a class with very unmanageable children. I thought that I never will be able to teach these mentally deficient children. Every day I was exhausted and I waited when I can go to my maternity leave. I went in the middle of October.

I expected my daughter in the first week of November.
Friends came to our place and they remained with us till 4 o’clock AM. We were playing and we were laughing lot. When they left for home I stood up and I felt something. My waters began break. Eszter one of our guests ( who had 2 children) told me I have time to go to hospital, “sleep a little and after 8 AM you have to go into the hospital.”-she said to me.

After 8 we were walking into the hospital.

19

I was in hospital after 8 o’clock. It was Sunday. Only the doctor on duty was there. My doctor was somewhere in the country. Nobody didn’t care about me. I haven’t any ache, but I have to stay in the hospital. In the evening I wanted to call my doctor. When at last they could speak to him.
-Mrs.Svaby isn’t my patient.
-It can be some misunderstanding -I said - I prearranged with Mr. Keserű that he will help me at the labour.-I said to the nurse.
The nurse told the doctor what I’ve said to her.
In short: I was a scatter-brained than several times in life.
I didn’t know the doctors only I knew this Keserű was the brother of my husband class-mate.
-Which doctor is this Mr. Keserű ? - I asked a woman who was sitting with me in the waiting-hall. She showed me ‘this-one.’ I entered to this doctor , I presented myself and I told him I would like to give birth to my baby with him. He told me OK and told that I would have phoned him when I would need him. I was convinced that I arranged everything.
But no. Later I knew the doctor who I asked to help me wasn’t Mr. Keserű but another one who was forbidden to conduct a delivery. When I asked him he asked a permit that he could conduct my dlivery. And he got a permit.
In this evening everything cleared up. I only said that I would like to give birth to my child with Mr. Keserű.
After I didn’t know how they arranged this misunderstanding but Mr. Keserű arrived and he remained with me, and I without bigger ache gave birth to my little daughter.
When they showed me I never felt in my life so big happiness. I didn’t believe to my eyes when I saw her perfect appearance, her perfect hands with her tiny nails, and everything was perfect. I din’t know how to nurse her. Nobody told me. But when they put her next to me with her eyes closed she straight away knew what she had to do. She was cleverer than me. Me, who had to learn lot of biology, I didn’t know the newborns’ instincts.What a miracle !

We were 5 days in the hospital and we came home. My husband showed to the little our flat and explained everything to her.My bed was prepared and I had to lie (in that time) for two weeks. My husband did everything with her, he changed her first, he bathed her and he gave me to my bed to nurse her.

After a month he received an Italian travel for 3 months. He drove us to my parents’place. Before Christmas somebody rang the doorbell. This is Lajos.- I cried out. My mum told me don’t speak stupidity he came back only at the end of February.And I was right he was. He told us that he missed us very much and came home.

my daughter was 1 month-old

20

Wow dear Kati let me confess it over again that all the times that i regard you as wonderfull you really were are and will be forever, what an astonishing lovely angel you were and what a gracefully adorable look you have casted on on her cherubic smile. if children could recall the pains that mothers have been through on the process of raising them they would have worshiped their mothers and fathers their whole life. dear kati what an amazingly starange coincidence it is that often while i am writing reading to thinking of YOU I got an sms from you, it indirectly tries to depict who purely do we love each other. you won’t believe this but i think i have seen you whole my life and have known you all the time, and your beautiful face would forever be carved into my heart.
please forgive me if i couldn’t write a letter to you today i would compensate my non writing with whatever you desire. i am going to post it here on the forum and if you regard it not appropraite to be posted on public you can delate the post but promise to save it as you did others.