When someone wins the second place in a competition you say ’ on the second place is …’ or in the second place is…’ ?
All you need to say is: Someone came second.
Alan
If you want the full version, it would be “in second place is…” (no “the”).
… as an additional note, the correct preposition is ‘in’.
In first place was Tom. He was closely followed by Jack in second place.
Thank you so much for replying.
Hello,
It is very surprizing. Ordinal numbers without definite articles/indefinite articles.
In first place…
In second place…
Someone came second.
What is it the rule? Can you explain it?
I 've looked up but I can’t make a rule or a definition.
I see "second " can be :det.ordinal number, adv,noun, verb.
Does the use of the articles is connected with these above?
I am looking forward to your answer.
Many thanks:
Kati Svaby
I wondered about this when I replied earlier. I don’t know any rule that explains why “first place”, “second place” and so on do not have the expected article associated with “place”. However, I would not expect to find an article in “someone came second” since there’s no noun to require one (“second” is an adjective).
Many thanks Dozy,
We have to acknologe this and be prepared that not always we have to use articles with ordinal numbers.
Regards:
KatiSvaby
Hello Dozzy,
I look for the Internet and I found this on the page of UsingEnglish. What is your opinion about it?
#1
03-Dec-2009, 19:20
imsok00l
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Articles with ordinal numbers…
Grammar books tell us one must always use the definite article with ordinal numbers.
But all too often I encounter ordinal numerals used with an indefinite or a zero article.
I’ve searched all over the web for some kind of grammar reference but to no avail.
Could someone give an outline of rules for the use of zero article and the indefinite aricle with ordinal numerals?
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#2
03-Dec-2009, 19:34
crclee
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 41
Member Type: English Teacher
Re: Articles with ordinal numbers…
Quote:
Originally Posted by imsok00l
Grammar books tell us one must always use the definite article with ordinal numbers.
But all too often I encounter ordinal numerals used with an indefinite or a zero article.
I’ve searched all over the web for some kind of grammar reference but to no avail.
Could someone give an outline of rules for the use of zero article and the indefinite aricle with ordinal numerals?
Hi
If you post some examples of ordinals without a definite article it will be easier for us to help, but here are some examples for you. (Note that these are all examples of something that looks like an ordinal but isn’t.)
-
He got a first from his university.
(A “first” means “a first-class degree” and is not an ordinal.) -
This is a first-class restaurant.
(In this case “first-class” is a compound adjective, not an ordinal.) -
We tried to arrive first but actually came second.
(In this case, “first” and “second” are adverbs not ordinals.) -
John is our first, and Mary is our second.
(In this case, “first” and “second” are adjectives that modify the implied noun “child” not ordinals.) -
She ate a third of the cake.
(In this case “a third” refers to a part of something (33.3%) and it’s a noun not an ordinal.)
Like I said, if you can post some other examples I’m sure that I or somebody could help you understand.
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#3
04-Dec-2009, 15:26
imsok00l
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Re:ARTICLES WITH ORDINAL NUMBERS…
Thanks for shedding some light on this, crclee! I guess I just have to keep in mind that first,second,etc can be different parts of speech.
What about these examples?
I teach 8th grade.
It’s July fourth.
I’ll do it first thing in the morning.
Also, off-topic: why do we say “It would be best to…” and not “It would be THE best to…”?
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#4
04-Dec-2009, 15:43
crclee
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Re:
Quote:
Originally Posted by imsok00l
Thanks for shedding some light on this, crclee! I guess I just have to keep in mind that first,second,etc can be different parts of speech.
What about these examples?
I teach 8th grade.
It’s July fourth.
I’ll do it first thing in the morning.
Also, off-topic: why do we say “It would be best to…” and not “It would be THE best to…”?
Hi
I teach 8th grade. (“8th” functions as an adjective)
It’s July fourth. (The definite article is understood so we imagine "It’s July (the) fourth)
I’ll do it first thing in the morning. (“first thing in the morning” is an adverb phrase similar in meaning to “early tomorrow”)
As for your interesting question about “best”, in the example you gave, “best” is a superlative adverb modifying “be” so an article would be incorrect because adverbs cannot take articles.
In a similar vein, these examples of superlative usage without “the” would also be correct:
- This is our biggest success yet.
- I think I like the red one most.
- Of all the diseases affecting society, cancer is most serious.
(In examples 2 and, especially 3, many people would include “the” but it is not strictly necessary.)
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#5
04-Dec-2009, 16:09
bhaisahab
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Current Location: England
Member Type: English Teacher
Re: Articles with ordinal numbers…
In BrE it is usual to say “July the fourth” or “the fourth of July”.
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ARTICLES WITH ORDINAL NUMBERS…[/b]
Hello Dozy,
I think that I understand totally.
1.If first is an ordinary number we have to use a definite article or a possesive pronoun.
-his first wife
-It was the first time they have ever met.
-King Edward, the first.(speaking)
If it is an adjective means the most important or best , we don’t have to use an article.
-Your first duty is your family.
-She won first prize in the competition.
- If it is an adverb, this is the same case.
-Do you want a drink?
-I’ll finish my work first.
-First I had to decide what to wear.
-Who came first?(=first time)
-When did you first meet him?
- To introduce a speech or piece of writting. Syn:firstly
-This method has two advanteges: first it is cheeper and second it is quicker.
LANGUAGE BANK AT PROCESS:
=used to emphasize that you are determined not to do sth.
She swore that she wouldn’t apologize - she die first.
(i don’t agree with this last sentence. We have to apologize -it’s not shame.)
So I would like to apologize to EVERYBODY who I hurted against my wishes.
Best regards:
Kati svaby
[I have not yet read your follow-up post that has just appeared.]
I’m a bit confused because the implication in one place in that thread seems to be that ordinal numbers are not adjectives, whereas I thought that was exactly what they were. As far as I can think, there are no special rules about the use of articles with “adjectival ordinal + noun”. The ordinal often tends to impart a “definiteness”, so the definite article is most common, but indefinite articles are perfectly possible, and, as usual, the article can be replaced by any of numerous other determiners:
“a first time for everything”
“a second chance”
“a third offence”
“my fourth marriage”
“that fifth vodka”
I’m wondering if I’m missing some point here.
This is not necessarily true. You can talk of “a first wife” or “a first time”, for example.
I don’t see any difference. You can talk about “a first duty”, “the first duty” and “your first duty”, just as “a first wife”, “the first wife” and “your first wife”.
To me, “first prize” seems like a special case, like “first place”, where the article/determiner is dropped for no obvious reason.
Hello Dozy,
Excuse me when I say the first wife here the first is an ordinary number.
When I say a first wife it is an adjactive and you can use without article or an indefinite
article; as you wrote. When somebody divorce can say that she was my first wife. Or I saw the first girl only in the row? -here the first is an ordinary number.
He has a first wife, a second wife etc because he has a harem. - here first is an adjective
First duty is the family. ( if you don’t want to use possesive pronoun, because it is disturbing.)
She won first prize. Or She won a first prise. I would rather say the first sentence.
She came second.
We can use with an indefinite article, but never with a definite if it is an adjective.
They have( a )second home in London.This isn’t egal if you say: He has a second home in London. This isn’t mean this is his second home.
You can say second gear when you put the gear in second position.
When you say the third person you use an ordinal number.
But when you travel on third class on a train or on a ship etc. you travel on the cheapest class. ( I intentionally wrote third(adj) class(n) - two words because I know there is third- class(adj) also.
Regards.
Kati Svaby
“gear” is another example, like “place” and “prize”, where the article is, exceptionally, dropped. “base” also. There seems to be a growing family of these words.
“a first wife” and “the first wife” can both be used, in the right sentential situation, regardless of whether someone is polygamous or divorced and remarried.
I didn’t quite understand what you said about “second home”, but “He has / they have second home in London” is incorrect. You must use “a” (or other determiner such as “his”/“their”).
Hello Ozzy,
I was mistaken when you first disputed with me I had a sigh “what a pity that Alan isn’t here.” You answered you don’t rely on me? Since Alan was here but he stayed impartial and he doesn’t want to do justice in this question.
I am sure that he knows what the dispute goes on.
For my first letter "quotation from the UsingEnglish " you answered that it is about the ordinal numbers.
THIS PART ESCAPED YOUR ATTENTION.
"If you post some examples of ordinals without a definite article it will be easier for us to help, but here are some examples for you. (Note that these are all examples of something that looks like an ordinal but isn’t.)
-
He got a first from his university.
(A “first” means “a first-class degree” and is not an ordinal.) -
This is a first-class restaurant.
(In this case “first-class” is a compound adjective, not an ordinal.) -
We tried to arrive first but actually came second.
(In this case, “first” and “second” are adverbs not ordinals.) -
John is our first, and Mary is our second.
(In this case, “first” and “second” are adjectives that modify the implied noun “child” not ordinals.) -
She ate a third of the cake.
(In this case “a third” refers to a part of something (33.3%) and it’s a noun not an ordinal.)"
Here are the rules ! After this,I controlled the Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary where you can find how use an ordinal number if it is an adjective or an adverb.
It was enough for me. If you found mistakes in my text, I am sorry but I found the examples in dictionaries.
Bye.
Kati Svaby
I’m sorry Kati, I find your posts virtually impossible to follow. If you have a specific question then I will be happy to try to answer it.
Hello Dozy,
If you don’t have arguement do you humiliate the other?
When you disputed me about “It’s vanished.” you said :" It has vanished." I said: “It is vanished” Our correspondence - where you stated my explanation meaningless, i sent all my correspondence an independent Americain language teacher who explained : in this situation “it’s vanished” means “It is vanished.” I didn’t want to show off, but her letter and her explanation there is on english test-net on a hidden thread.
Now I feel unwell because I have temperature if your letter hadn’t come I would sleep now.
It is tedius that you say to me always it is meaningless. Interesting that other people understands me, expect you.
Kati Svaby
Kati, I did not wish to upset you. In this thread I have been genuinely trying to answer your questions, but I truly cannot follow your train of thought. It seems that you disagree with me about something, but I do not understand what you disagree with.
I stand by my opinion that the natural interpretation here is “It has vanished”. I raised this in a separate thread:
english-test.net/forum/ftopi … s_vanished
As you can see, two senior members of this forum agree.
I do not know why the teacher you referred to thought it should naturally mean “It is vanished”. Possibly there are AmE/BrE or other regional differences. Possibly the question or answer was miscommunicated or misunderstood. Possibly she just personally has what seems to me a uncommon viewpoint.
Dozy,
“Adverbs cannot take articles” is wrong.
For example:
- It’s a really(adv) large(adj) building.
- He is a very(adv) good(adj) boy.
So the rule can be amended as follows:
“An Adverb alone without modifying adjective cannot take article.”
Am I not right?
Please comment.