I’m a native English speaker and I was trying to help. So please don’t get all defensive. It’s not all about your viewpoint.
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I think Andrea explained the differences perfectly. Yes, I think it is necessary to give detailed explanations. This has always been a practice that has been followed since the origins of this site over 25 years ago when Torsten and I first developed English online.
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How can you be proud of not knowing something well? I mean, language is what sets us humans apart from other species. Your command of the language is the single most skill you should develop and honing your language skills should be a lifelong process. What kind of person are you if you are ‘proud of the fact that you do not know English very well’?
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Go ask the people who live here. Clearly, I’m not talking about myself.
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I’m not even slightly defensive – merely factual.
There’s absolutely no functional, grammatical, or syntactical difference between "native fluent speaker’ and “fluent native speaker.” They mean the exact same thing and are completely interchangeable. Yes, subjectively, some people prefer one over the other, but that’s nothing but subjectivity. So, I said, if someone believes there is a difference between the two, then explain that difference.
This has been a long and pointless journey down a rabbit hole that has nothing to do with my original post. The original post was about using “out” vs “outside.” The person who went off track didn’t even bother to answer the original question.
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Well, as Andrea has already explained the phrase ‘native fluent speaker’ doesn’t make any sense and is neither idiomatic nor meaningful while ‘fluent native speaker’ might make sense in theory but still sounds rather odd.
By the way, what is pointless to you might be interesting to other people.
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Yes, this is true…
It has just occurred to me that the following would be possible:
a native/fluent speaker
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But it makes exactly as much sense either way. Why can’t one be used as a modified for the other? That’s rhetorical, as they each modify the other equally well. Both arrangements are equally intelligible. Both say the exact same thing. If you understand one, you understand the other. That is, if you are a native fluent speaker or a fluent native speaker.
Additionally, why can’t they both be modifying “speaker”? Answer: They can. No problem. Happens frequently in English.
It comes down to pure subjectivity. And I get it, you like one but not the other. And that’s as far as it goes.
Some people say, “upside down,” others say, “downside up.”
Some people say, “right side up,” others say, “upside right.”
It’s preference, and preference alone.
Do you say, “soda,” “pop,” or “soda pop”? I use all three because they all mean the exact same thing and all three are equally correct.
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To the point when explain…
Well, there is a difference between ‘a big front wheel’ and ‘a front big wheel’. The first one makes sense while the second version doesn’t. The words ‘native speaker’ and ‘front wheel’ are compound nouns that can’t be separated.
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It’s worth noting that where there is more than one adjective, the most appropriate/suitable/natural adjective usually immediately precedes the noun. In other words you tend to go from general to particular. In the present ‘fluent/native’ contretemps. you would prefer ‘fluent native speaker’ although it is a wonky construction.
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Hello, Mesasnem,
It is great that we can exhibit a range of viewpoints on the forum, but I believe that we should just leave our response to the poster and move on. The forum is a ‘polling of opinions’ not a debate.
Best,
Tom
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Hi Tom, the forum is only a platform that enables us to exchange ideas. These exchanges can have various forms such as dialogue, discussion, debate, test, etc.
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘polling of opinions’ though.
Regards,
Torsten
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There are lots of adjective pairs that must be in a certain order to make sense. Listing even a dozen such examples doesn’t make any case whatsoever, because this is not one of them. “Fluent speaker” is just as much a compound noun that cannot be separated.
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However, “native speaker” cannot be wonky because we just learned that it is a compound noun that cannot be separated.
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I’m the original poster here. I asked a question about “out” vs “outside.” It has since gone down this rabbit hole regarding the order of “fluent” and “native,” which I see as pure subjectivity – preference – and nothing more. But that’s the only thing that’s even been proffered in support of one order vs the other. In essence: This one sounds better to me. When I suggested that this discussion was pointless, it was pointed out to me that other people here find it very useful and informative.
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You need to read Alan’s post again. He clearly wrote that ‘a fluent native speaker’ is a wonky construction. You obviously refuse to see the difference between ‘a fluent native speaker’ and a ‘native speaker’.
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I don’t refuse to see anything. “Fluent speaker” and “native speaker” are both perfectly valid. Both “fluent” and “native” modify “speaker” equally well. The order you put them in is purely preference. “Wonky” isn’t any sort of objective standard.
Nor is using both of them together redundant, as it is entire possible for a fluent speaker to not be native and it is also possible for a native speaker to not be fluent. I’ve met a lot of native speakers who can make no valid claim to fluency.
Is it upside down or downside up?
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I am an American who was a TOEFL instructor, both here and abroad. I know this is an old thread, but EVERYONE who commented was technically incorrect. They are not interchangeable, but it is not simply preference. The correct term would be either:
- A “nativeLY fluent English speaker” is a person who has learned English after beginning life speaking another language. For instance, an American child who began life learning only English, but later (by completion of Vorschule, or any other milestone) speaks German with the same vocabulary and accent as a “regular” German person of a similar age/experience level. Frederik Pleitgen is a pretty good example. He speaks accent-free non-regional English. My own American accent is almost identical to his, probably because my parents have 2 different very distinct accents; I grew up in a very different region, far from either. ALSO: Native, as a modifier is an adverb NOT an adjective.
Or
- A “fluent English speaker” may even have a very heavy accent, and/or make false friends or idiomatic mistakes. The will rarely be totally misunderstood, though. They may be very advanced in their knowledge and rarely make any mistakes, even in the most obscure slang; but they will immediately be recognized as a foreigner. Most Skandinavians and journalists tend to fall into this category.
Or
- A “native English speaker”. Self explanatory. A person who speaks a language natively needs no modifier. They likely only speak English, if they’re American LOL. Their accent and vocabulary will likey vary widely because America is huge, with several distinct linguistic cultures.
That is why Out/Outside are used differently, depending on region. Technically, for purposes of instruction, the positional/directional rule is true. . . That being said, they are not used that way uniformly. The positional rule is likely to apply most frequently to closed structural boundaries, but it varies a lot. “It’s raining/snowing/hot/cold, etc.) out” are definitely heard throughout almost all of the Southwest, Intermountain and Western parts of the U.S., and sometimes in the south. The reason for this is that it’s inferred by context–weather happens outside. Incidentally, “Going Out” has the connotation of dating in some regions, but not all. Ex: “We had been going out for 3 years, when we got engaged.” Texas has a lot of variables that are not really heard elsewhere, also. Also, areas where there is a very heavy, old German influence. Here, in Lancaster, PA, “Dutchy” natives use many idioms that are translated almost directly, using German word order with English words. . . making NO SENSE to most other Americans. They are still native speakers.
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