In Michael Swan’s ‘Practical English Usage’ , page 524, I read that you can say and/or write for example:
The courts martial (…or the court martials)
Mohters-in-law (…or mother-in-laws)
Tell me what you think, because in Dutch we always make a plural of the first part of the noun for example:
Secretaris-Generaal (=Secretary General in English) becomes Secretarissen-Generaal and not Secretaris- Generaals
But what is the plural of Mr and Mrs? Now, you know that I am a huge fan of ‘Dynasty’, and Joan Collins. Starring as Alexis Colby, I once heard her say: ‘There are two Mrs Colbys, now’. I think this is correct, since ‘There are to Mrses Colby’ sounds so strange.
Bye, and sleep well tonight, for I probably won’t :lol:
Marc
I hope you had a good night despite the plural of Mr and Mrs.
Anyway, you are right when you talk about two people with the same surname you add an «s» to the surname rather than the Mr or Mrs.
When you want to address a number of people with different surnames you simply say «Ladies and Gentlemen» or «Gentlemen».[YSaerTTEW443543]
You have to adhere to the social customs of the language you are speaking.
In the English-speaking countries we generally believe in the basic dignity of all people, regardless of their financial situation, so you are “Mr.” in English.
When your father gets old and cannot take care of himself, would people stop calling him “Mr.”? I don’t think so.
Do yourself a favor and throw away that book. Swann once again proves he is an idiot who should never be allowed anywhere near an ESL classroom!
Only forms such as courts marshall, mothers-in-law, and secretaries general are correct. The others are always wrong.
As for Mr. and Mrs., years ago there were standard abbreviations for these, but they were based on French plural forms. They are no longer in active use and most people would be confused by their use. If use of these titles is desired, it is best to use the unabbreviated forms (Misters Johnson and Williams) and (Misses Ward and Greene).
Sorry, OB, but that Messrs. isn’t even close to dead yet. I still see it from time to time in mainstream publications, and it doesn’t confuse anybody. In fact, I use it myself, and I even hear people refer in speech to men with that title, pronouncing it [mɛssrz]. In fact, if you Google “Misters” you only get about 700,000 hits, but you get more than 19 million for “Messrs.”
“Misses Ward and Greene” is fine, but what do you do when you need a plural title for two married women? There isn’t one.
By the way, Mr. is also based on an old French form, as is the word “Mister” itself, which is a contraction of “mon seigneur”.
Alright, i agree with myself, jamie k and the majority. Oxfordblues i think you should read the book a practical english, an Oxford press. I’m a non english speaker, my country still speaks english as a foreign language but i’m quite sure bout what i’m saying. If no, i would ask the other for the correction.
I too would understand the plural abbreviation Messrs. In fact as I mentioned above, it’s an abbreviated form of the French Messiuers. However, you would be very hardpressed to find an average native English-speaker who refers to plural groups of men using that French honorarium. Likewise you’ll rarely find some referring to a young male as Master.
There is possibe, allowable, and technically correct usage, and there is usage which is likely to result in common understanding and successful communication. In learning English which is the most apt form?
OB, they don’t say “Messieurs”, they say [mɛssrz], and it’s used a lot. Whether or not you ever hear it depends on the formality of the functions you attend and the literacy and educational level of the people you socialize or work with.
These learners are hoping to sound like educated people in English, and possibly to be able to switch from an educated style to a lower style like the one you’re promoting, not to function in the lower style only.
At one college where I teach, we use series of books for teaching vocabulary that is basically the words a student needs to do well on the SAT or the TOEFL. Every so often some student comes in raging that he showed the book to his coworkers and that they don’t know ANY of that vocabulary! Should I just tell him, “I apologize. If your coworkers don’t know the words, please don’t waste your time learning this material after all”? English classes are meant to teach people to talk and write better than the average moron, not to limit them to the troglodyte stage!
What you’re really arguing is that people should limit their capacity to communicate, not that they enhance it. This seems to be a running theme in your posts: Don’t teach them to use idioms, even though native speakers use them all the time. Don’t teach them to use question tags, even though native speakers use them all the time. Don’t teach them to use plurals that someone you’re aware of wouldn’t know.
My guess is that you may not be a very effective foreign language learner yourself, because your focus so heavily on stopping people from learning things, rather than on their learning as much as they can.
Jamie, trust me, I’m from that top socioeconomic class you’re speaking of. I’ve attended Harvard, have degrees from some of the top universities in the world, am well travelled, have owned several businesses, and have over 15 years experience in ESL.
I am likely as familiar with any standard speech pattern as anyone else you could find. I am however, realistic. And, while you may be happy claiming that a mostly archaic form is normal, it is not. In fact, the phone I am typing this on classes Messers. as an error (showing that it’s not as widespread as you may think).
And finally, if you are going to use that form don’t say it’s messerz, because it’s not.
I was writing an accurate phonetic transcription in IPA of how educated Americans pronounce the abbreviation “Messrs.” I wasn’t writing the abbreviation in chat room spelling.
If you went to Harvard, I’m prone to thinking you have that mentality I typically find in people from there, Yale, Columbia, Princeton, etc. Most of these people arrogantly assume a lower level of intelligence and literacy in the people who are not part of that “club”, and tend to limit what they give to students based on what they semi-consciously assume is their inferior level of intelligence. Some of them play the Great White Father and think it’s their job to limit foreign ESL students’ exposure to Anglophone culture, on the assumption that it will corrupt them. As in many other things, they don’t trust regular people to make their own sound decisions with new knowledge, so they tend to limit the knowledge they will mete out.
The last Ivy League ESL teacher I had to manage (who just happened to be slumming) was truly unbearable in her unconscious arrogance. She would talk to foreign surgeons in the tone of voice normally used on children. I could tell her to stop it, but since I was “inferior” to her, she never listened. The funny thing about that type is that they think they’re being friendly when they’re being condescending.
Ok seriously? You’re the one who keeps assuming things about me and about what I think of others.
As for your IPA transcription, it’s still wrong. The only pronunciation that abbreviation represents is a French word borrowed into English along with a slew of other ettiquette terms. That word is Messieurs not messers. Anyone who does pronounce it as the latter is obviously ignorant of what it represents and should thus refrain from using it.
I was referred to as Master in school, yet I have the common sense not to use it in my everyday dealings today because it is antiquated, no longer in standard use, and often misunderstood.
In recommending which forms non-native learners should use, like caution should be exercised. Encouraging a learner to use Messers. in the 21st century is like encouraging them to use thou or wilt.