I am in dilemma, when should I use have+forgoten? (Have+given)
Is this sentence correc -->They forgot one Plug here.
Somebody forgot a Plug in the room. After 1 hour, when I went into the room, there was a class going on and I told them “They forgot one Plug here.”
Here, should I say “They have forgotten”?
Even if there is no impact/effect in the present, should I use Have+forgotten OR Have+given.
When should I use “Have+given it” and - “Gave it”-
Thanks
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What is a ‘plug’?
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I am sorry, it is an electrical object. But, it would be any thing - “Book” or “Pen”.
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None of your sentences requires present perfect, at least from the context you have supplied; these are all OK:
They forgot one Plug here.
Somebody forgot a Plug in the room.
“They forgot one Plug here.”
As you said, present prefect normally expresses a past event (or non-event-- ‘the parade hasn’t started yet’) which in some way impacts upon Now.
“Oh, look!-- They’ve just forgotten another plug!” The impact-on-Now here is that this forgetting of plugs may continue now and into the future.
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Hi Sureshvemuri,
To develop further this difference between Present Perfect and Past Simple, I’d like to give an example.
Imagine that you are coming up to the front door of your house with someone and you realise that your key is not in your pocket, you could say: Oh dear, I’ve forgotten my key.
When you describe this situation later, you could use the narrative tense (Past Simple) and say: I forgot my key last night and had to phone my son to bring me
his Key.
Alan
Thank you Alan and Mister Micawber for your time and help!
Could the past simple be used in AmEng in your first example? I think, even in BrEng, the past could be used there, right?
For example, adding to Alan’s example:
Imagine that you are coming up to the front door of your house with someone and you realise that your key is not in your pocket, you could say both: Oh dear, I’ve forgotten my key or I forgot my key, couldn’t you?
Edited, due to Alan’s comments below.
Could that also explain the past simple, AmEng use, of “Did you eat yet”?
Hi Molly,
I don’t know why you constantly put chunks of what has already been given in another post into your replies. If you must do this, don’t please add bits of your own in the ‘quote’ as you have just done above.
Alan
Hi Sureshiverumi & Molly
The general theory is that AE uses less present perfect than BrE English, and this could be down to simplifying the tense system or helping the German immigrants when the country and language was being formed
However although common as it is that Brits use more present perfect, both Americans and Brits will use the tense forms consciously or subconsciously in the way that is supposed to be attributed to the other.
But “Have you eaten?” , “Did you eat yet?” can be given as examples of yardsticks for AE and BrE respectively.
Maybe with the varnish wearing off ; )
Why? I was asking if one could add to your statement, if one could use the same context for both the past simple and the present perfect. Anyway, I’ve now edited that post. Is it OK now?
Thanks. And would you say that the past simple could also be chosen by, BrEng speakers, in “Alan’s” context here:
I would expect the simple past tense to be used by an American in the situation described above. Though the present perfect might possibly be used by an American speaker in such a situation, I would expect that to be much more the exception than the rule. I would say that this simply has to do with the American preference (or habit, if you will) to view specific and unquestionably finished past acts simply as being finished. In other words, this particular instance of ‘not putting the key in my pocket’ is clearly finished and cannot possibly continue or change. Clearly, this specific incidence of ‘forgetting (to put the key in your pocket)’ is also finished, and this specific act of forgetting cannot change or continue either. The fact that this past act might also have a so-called ‘effect or impact on the present’ is clear in the context. Nobody needs the present perfect to tell them that.
I would suggest that an American is more likely to use a perfect form (in the situation described above) if the sentence is worded this way, for example:
- “I seem to have forgotten my key.”
I would suggest that this has nothing whatsoever to do with “simplifying” the tense system. And, sorry Stew, but suggesting that Americans use the simple past tense more often than the present perfect in order to “help the German immigrants” is complete and utter rubbish, in my opinion. Did you get that theory from a German? :?
Have you ever heard the Swabians (Germans from southwest Germany) speak German, for example? They hardly ever use the simple past tense when speaking their own language. Have you ever heard a Swabian ESLer speak English? As soon as they start learning the present perfect, they tend to develop a marked tendency to massively over-use the English present perfect. And when I say ‘over-use’, I mean that they tend to want to use the present perfect in English to such an extent that they practically forget the simple past tense and end up mis-using the present perfect.
It seems to me that this Swabian over-use of the present perfect in English is probably mainly a reflection of their own use of German. Having to use the simple past tense in English only appears to make life much more difficult for Swabian ESLers. 
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Hi Molly
As I said Brits and Americans interchange these tenses.
This can be down to many reasons. Colloquial or regional differences, association with family roots, laziness breeding inconsistency and a possible Americanisation or Britisation.
But Alans example is common place usage. the ave, I´ve is common place in spoken British English.
Hi Molly
As I said Brits and Americans interchange these tenses.
This can be down to many reasons. Colloquial or regional differences, association with family roots, laziness breeding inconsistency and a possible Americanisation or Britisation.
But Alans example is common place usage. the ave, I´ve is common place in spoken British English.
Hi Amy
You are entitled to that opinion, but your counter-argument is revealing in it´s absence or do you not agree with the statement concerning less usage of present perfect in American English.
:o
Maybe I should have qualified in the general with certain circles. And no I have not got this from a German, I have even heard a respected linguist from Israel discussing this possibility. p.
I have also mentioned before that I worked for an American woman who used American English from Beginners to Intermediate for the “simpler” reason. So I have heard this opinion even from one of your fellow countryfolk. :?
The Swabian example is one of those regional variations that highlight the difference in this premise. However many of my students, Wessies and Ossies alike state “American English is simpler”. One of their reasons for this is the mystery of the lesser use of present perfect.
cheers stew.t.
Huh? What “absence” are you talking about? Yes, I would agree that the present perfect is used less often in AmE than in BE. Or didn’t you get that from the first part of my post?
I would also suggest that it is typically easier for an American ESL teacher to teach American English, and it is typically easier for a British ESL teacher to teach British English. Actually, that should be obvious, shouldn’t it? Did your American ESL friend(s) tell you precisely which “rules” were different as regards the teaching of the present perfect and the simple past tense? What are these simplified rules for the present perfect vs the simple past? I’d be interested in reading that.
By the way, I’ve had British colleagues tell me that they have trouble with the American usage of the simple past tense. I’ve had Germans tell me that British English is simpler, and I’ve had Germans tell that they think American English is easier. So, where does that leave us? I’d say we’re stuck with a bunch of subjective and varying opinions.
The future with ‘will’ (and without ‘shall’), for example, is something I might call a (recent) simplification, but that was not what was being discussed in this thread. The topic was specifically the use of the present perfect vs the simple past tense.
What was the name of the “respected Israeli linguist” whose opinion you say you’re quoting? And do you happen to recall in which century this linguist thinks American English was “founded”?
Talk of actively trying to make tenses in American English “simpler” specifically for the benefit of German immigrants reminds me of a myth I heard constantly when I was living in Germany. It seemed to me that nearly every German had heard this myth, and perhaps you’ve been told the story too. German legend has it that there was once a vote in the US to decide which language should be the official language of the United States, and that German lost out to English by only one vote. If you have heard this popular German myth, I hope you didn’t believe it – 'cause it just ain’t true.
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Really? Gott in Himmel!
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:lol: :lol:
Here’s the scoop, MM:
watzmann.net/scg/german-by-one-vote.html
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And here are 2 Wikipedia links about this legend (one in German, one in English):
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muehlenberg-Legende
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_in_ … ted_States
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Hmm-- a grain of truth in the story.
Now, however, I get my California absentee ballots in English, Spanish, Korean and Farsi (and there may be a couple of other languages I have forgotten)!
Taken another way, this is quite true.
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