Hi, everyone
I have searched for some article for subjunctive. To distinguish the time and meaning between present subjunctive and past subjunctive still seems to be a mystery. Could you point out the difference of them (Time, meaning) ?
For Example :
If that be the case I will be a dead man.
If that were the case, I would be a dead man.
Sorry I add one more case : Why we say my life āwould suckā without you (song from Kelly Clarkson) instead of āBe suck without youā ?
Even though I am not sure Iāve got you, Iāll try to point to some things related to the conditional sentences and the subjunctive forms used in them. Please do not forgive I am not a teacher.
If that were the case, I would have been a dead man. [color=blue]Unreality in the past. I am alive for the condition wasnāt fulfilled.
The meaning is the same in all the cases. āTo be a dead manā if the condition be/were/were (had been) fulfilled.
Itās the question of the time aspect only.
āIf that be the caseā is technically correct but risks sounding unnatural in modern English. 99% of the time people would say āIf that is the caseā.
Huh, I meant to have said āforgetā instead of āforgiveā. Sorry!
Never mind, weāll forgive and forget ā¦ 
Hello, Thank you Dozy and E2e4
Sorry for demotivating you, E2e4 but I am still not quite get what you said.
Do you mean
If that were the case, I would have been a dead man. -> Unreal in the past, I got it
How about āIf that be/is the case,ā¦ā -> unreal in the present , and it might happen in the future ? Could you confirm me that ?
And
Why we say my life āwould suckā without you (song from Kelly Clarkson) instead of āMy life be/is suck without youā or would have been suck ?
Does āwould suckā mean it might happen in the future (not real in present) ? how about the other cases like be/is suck or would have been suck ?
Sorry for the āimpolite exampleā with āsuckā
Best
āIf that be/is the case I will be a dead man.ā ā According to the speakerās knowledge, it is the case, or there is the possibility that it is the case. As mentioned earlier, ābeā sounds strained or archaic. āI will be a dead manā is not wrong, but āIām a dead manā is probably more likely. (This is not dictated by the first part of the sentence, but is simply because āIām a dead manā is a more idiomatic expression.)
āIf that was/were the case, I would be a dead man.ā ā āwasā is common in everyday English; āwereā is more formal. Speaker is talking about a hypothetical situation.
Do you mean āMy life would be suck without youā or āMy life be suck without youā? Neither of those is grammatical.
The line is āmy life would suck without youā because āsuckā is a verb.
TOEIC listening, photographs: Impressive column
Hello E2e4, Dozy
Thanks for replying my post again. I am still walking in the maze after reading your reply.
E2e4, I hope you donāt take offense at this, I pretty prefer the explanation of Dozy, I can understand her written easily (all of them is very simple words)
My English level is a little low, Some of the words in your reply, I donāt quite get it in your context, E2e4.
Dozy, Exactly like you said, the original example should be like (5) below, Iām really sorry when I post, I forgot the right example.
I should have posted more detail for asking this question. Let clear out my previous questions.
Here is the extract of the lesson from a professor in university.
with the exception of be, normal English verbs (i.e., indicatives) already use the
base form for the present plural and the first and second person present singular. The
subjunctive use of the base form, therefore, is distinctive only in the third person singular of
most regular verbs. Sentences (1) through (3) below show that the subjunctive can be used
in that-clauses triggered by a verb (1), an adjective (2), or noun (3) respectively:
(1) They proposed that he go to China.
(2) It is advisable that he go to China.
(3) The general gave an order that the sentry fire without asking for a password.
Sentence (4) illustrates the subjunctiveās use in certain old-fashioned formulae. Conditional
clauses like those in sentences (5) and (6) can also use the subjunctive:
(4) Be that as it may, I am going.
(5) If that be the case, I am a dead man.
(6) We must take care lest we be seen as arrogant.
In modern English, the past subjunctive is pretty much confined to uses of were when
one would otherwise use was.
Regular English verbs have no distinctive subjunctive form in the past tense. For the verb
be, the past subjective is formed by using the plural were where one would normally find the
singular wasāe.g., for the first or third person past singular. This subjunctive is used in
conditional or hypothetical clauses or in clauses which follow certain verbs, like wish in
sentence (10):
(8) If I were a rich man, I wouldnāt have to sing this song.
(9) He acted as though he were offended.
(10) I wish this class were over.
Dozy, so āIf that is the case, Iāll be a dead manā with the sentence (5) is no difference , I just want to confirm again (just want to be sure, you know) ?
In fact, I want to know the meaning of the (3) (present subjunctive) and the (6) (past subjunctive) ? (the other ones I already got the meaning)
and in the Time aspect, same context, How the meaning changes When I shift present subjunctive to past subjunctive and visceral ?
for example :
if I turn the (3) to past subjunctive and (6) to the present subjunctive ?
How the meaning changes ? (time aspect)
Thanks for Torsten,
Yes, Itās a verb, I thought it was an adj. thatās why I got these dump questions. I should have known it as a verb.
hi Torten, Is āMy life would suck without youā kind of subjunctive ? (present or past)
Itās not a subjunctive, itās just āwouldā followed by an infinite.
TOEIC listening, photographs: A castle
Itās a hypothetical situation.
If I am without you, my life will suck = my life would suck without you
Can I turn it to present subjunctive like
āIf I be without you, my life suckā. or ābe without you, my life suckā
I think you are confusing the subjunctives with the conditionals.[YSaerTTEW443543]
TOEIC listening, photographs: People shopping[YSaerTTEW443543]
Dear Waiyin Cheng, it is normal that you easier understand Dozyās answers than mine for he is a professional teacher and I am a learner. That doesnāt bother me.
Somebodyās English is as better as he uses less words in order to explain.
Thank you for taking into account my answers as well. Good enough for me.
Anyhow, you see, I do not give up. So, in your example that follows
there is no any subjunctive form in this sentence.
Let me try to write your sentence different way
āwereā here is the simple past subjunctive form of the verb āto beā.
But in #1 an ellipsis was used. āif I wereā was thrown out of the sentence. Informal English.
Best
The differences between āIf that be the case, I am a dead manā and āIf that is the case, Iāll be a dead manā are, as mentioned, firstly that ābeā sounds a bit stilted and archaic, and secondly that āI am a dead manā is more idiomatic than āI will be a dead manā. There are no fundamental differences in meaning, temporal or otherwise. āI am a dead manā obviously does not mean the speaker is dead now, but always means that he expects to be killed in the future (not always meant literally).
The āseenā part of sentence (6) is present passive. The normal form would be āwe are seenā. In the subjunctive, āareā changes to ābeā, and āseenā remains unchanged. This ālest we beā construction is quite formal.
thanks to E2e4, I should rewrite it in past tense, not present tense as I did.
Torsten, There is subjunctive using in If conditional for expressing unreal in the past. Yes I am confused the subjunctive stuffs but, What I have said is pretty sure.
hi Dozy,
Sorry for I am still not giving up, and keep asking more and more
The most important that Iād like to know is how the meaning will change if I shift the subjunctive tense (is it possible to do the shifting ? )
for example :
if I shift the (3) to past subjunctive and (6) to the present subjunctive ?
As I know, subjunctive to express unreal in the past, hypothetical situation, sth is not true.
We must take care lest we are seen as arrogant.
Why they use the subjunctive for (6)? (do they mean it does not happen now but might occur in the future ? ) What is the meaning they want to express in this sentence? can it be re-written/understood as :
We must take care to prevent that we will be seen as arrogant.
However In (3) I am more confused :
The general gave an order that the sentry fire without asking for a password.
The first clause is past tense, that-clause is using present subjunctive āFireā.
What the meaning that the author want to express ?
can it be re-written/understood as :
The general gave an order that the sentry WILL fire without asking for a password.
In (3), āThe general gave an order that the sentry fired without asking for a passwordā is not right, if thatās what youāre asking. Even though the order was in the past, we use the present subjunctive, in this case āfireā, in this kind of sentence.
(6) is already present subjunctive (passive).
Because ālestā describes a hypothetical situation.
Yes (your explanatory sentence is not perfect English, but it is clear that you understand the meaning correctly).
āThe general gave an order that the sentry should fire without asking for a password.ā