He has been/gone to the movies ten times this week!

[Sitifan]

He has _____ to the movies ten times this week!
Which word should I use to fill in the above blank: gone, been or either?

[Bee053]

I will fill " gone " in the blank.
Is it correct?
It would be nice ,if you tell me it’s right or wrong.
Thanks,
Bee

[Yankee]

Hi Sitifan

My first choice would be “gone”.
Though I’m sure some people would use “been”, I’d say that choice would be less common in that particular sentence (in American English).
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[Bee053]

Thank you so much.
Bee

[Molly]

Though I’m sure some people would use “been”, I’d say that choice would be less common in that particular sentence (in American English).

So in which particular sentences would AmEng speakers more commonly use “been”?

COCA

has been to the movies - 2
has gone to the movies - 0

What’s happ’nin’?

[Yankee]

What’s happ’nin’?

I’d say that what’s happening is Molly attempting to purposely mislead learners again.
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[Molly]

@Yankee

What’s happ’nin’?

I’d say that what’s happening is Molly attempting to purposely mislead learners again.
.

What a strange reaction, Amy? You state that something would be a less popular choice in a particular sentence, but you don’t tell us why that should be or give guidance on where that choice would be more popular. I ask you a question about your statement and you say that I’m misleading learners. And remember, as far as AmEng goes, many of us here are learners. How can my attempts at getting wider, clearer picture be misleading to such learners?

[Yankee]

.
I doubt that you’ll have much luck finding that exact sentence in COCA, Mollster.
However, I see the probability of that sentence being a spoken sentence as higher than it being a formal, written one. Thus, if an American were to utter that particular sentence, I’d expect it to begin with “He’s” rather than “He has”.

That said, I’d expect the simple past tense (“went to the movies”) to be more likely than the present perfect in a sentence such as the one posted. And if his movie-going were reported with the past perfect, I’d expect “had gone to the movies” to be more commonly used than “had been to the movies”.

You’ll note that I used the word “movie-going” in my last sentence. I didn’t make that word up. It came quite naturally – and that probably stems from the fact that “go to the movies” is a common collocation in AmE.
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[Bee053]

I think " been" is better.
Thanks for your help.
I can use it correctly by now.

Best regards,
Bee

[Yankee]

Hi Bee53

I’m curious to know why you changed your mind. Why do you now like “been” better?
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[Molly]

Why do you now like “been” better?

Sensible. :lol:

That said, I’d expect the simple past tense (“went to the movies”) to be more likely than the present perfect in a sentence such as the one posted.

Any ideas why it would be that way with that particular sentence, or similar sentences?

[Yankee]

Hi Molly

Would you say it would be more common to say “went to the movies” or “went to the cinema” in British English?
What about “been to the movies” vs “gone to the movies” in British English?
What about “been to the cinema” vs “gone to the cinema” in British English?

Would you say the original sentence would be more likely to be uttered by an American or a Brit? What about an Australian?
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[Molly]

This was my main question, Amy:

So in which particular sentences would AmEng speakers more commonly use “been”?

If you can’t answer it, it’s OK.

[Yankee]

Molly, you recently received information about “gone to” vs “been to” both here on this site and on other sites. I’m surprised you’ve forgotten already. As I’ve also already told you, there is no prescriptive, black-and-white rule for this.

Here is a refresher for you:
In AmE, the use of “gone to” (as opposed to “been to”) has a more definite sense of purpose and activity. The sense is often quite similar to “attend”. In addition, you can use “go to” in a variety of verb forms whereas “been to” is more or less restricted to the perfect form. The use of “been to” is more stative, and I’d say it seems less specific/more general – probably because it lacks the same sort of sense of special purpose. You’re likely to hear “have/has been to” in very broad, general statements about visiting a country, for example:

• Have you ever been to France?
• He’s never been to France.
• We’ve been to France a couple times.

As I have also already mentioned, “go to the movies” is a common collocation in AmE. In American English, “go to the movies” typically means “see a movie in a theater”. If you say that he “has gone to the movies 10 times this week”, that would be understood to mean that he did the following exactly 10 times this week:
He went to a movie theater (in order to watch a movie!); he watched the movie; he left the movie theater.

There is a specific purpose and activity built into the expression “go to the movies” – just as there is a specific purpose suggested in “go to church” and “go to school”.
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[Diverhank]

I agree with Yankee on this one. “Gone” is more common than “been” in AmE.

[Molly]

Molly, you recently received information about “gone to” vs “been to” both here on this site and on other sites.

It takes a while to notice just when and where each form is used.

I’m surprised you’ve forgotten already.

No need to patronise, Amy.

As I’ve also already told you, there is no prescriptive, black-and-white rule for this.

I’m not looking for prescriptive rules, just something systematic. Some AmEng speakers may be able to provide info on that.

In AmE, the use of “gone to” (as opposed to “been to”) has a more definite sense of purpose and activity. The sense is often quite similar to “attend”.

But is that your personal view of things, or do many AmEng speakers read it that way?

The use of “been to” is more stative, and I’d say it seems less specific/more general – probably because it lacks the same sort of sense of special purpose.

And how does that apply to these?

A: I feel so ill.
B: Have you been/gone to the doctor?

As I have also already mentioned, “go to the movies” is a common collocation in AmE.

As is “go to the cinema” in my variety of English, but we still say “has/have/had been to the cinema” if the visit is over. I’m assuming that AmEng use is something that developed Stateside and was not brought over from Britain. Am I right?

There is a specific purpose and activity built into the expression “go to the movies” – just as there is a specific purpose suggested in “go to church” and “go to school”.

As there is with “go to France”, and similar. To me, there is no more or less specificity with the first example than with the second here:

Has he gone out. (He’s not here.)
Has he been out. (He’s here.)

The present perfect allows one to speak less specifically, less generally, about situations, but that is the “has/have + past participle form”. It has little to do with the choice of verb, IMO. That’s why I find it hard to see the “more definite sense of purpose and activity” that you claim “gone” has over “been”.

[Yankee]

@Molly

But is that your personal view of things, or do many AmEng speakers read it that way?

@Molly

… the “more definite sense of purpose and activity” that you claim “gone” has over “been”.

It’s not just my “claim”. Here are some of the North American responses you have already received elsewhere:

@Pete at Englishpage

The use of “gone” to me has more feeling of action, doing something, having to go somewhere, and that fits better with the ongoing quality of “every year”.

On the other hand, I’d probably say,

• Oh yes, I’ve been to the Bahamas.
  In this case, even though it would be assumed that I couldn’t have been there without traveling, my emphasis is on the fact that I was there at some time, not the traveling that got me there.

@Rusty at Englishpage

I think that idiomatic expressions such as “Has the postman been?” are understood in context. For example, on my road we say, “Has the mail gone yet?” This means “Has the mail carrier (come and gone and) delivered the mail?” However, the same expression in my office means, “Has the out-going mail been picked up?”

@Clive at Englishforums

A small further note. In very, very general terms, ‘to have been to’ just states that ‘I was present in the place’, whereas ‘to go to’ expresses some sense of purposeful movement. eg

If my plane made an unplanned stop in London, I might later say ‘I have been to London’, but I probably wouldn’t say ‘I went to London’.

@Nef at Englishforums

Have you ever gone to a concert?

Here’s another vote for # 6 (as shown above) as being just fine. I’m wondering if British English, Canadian English, and American English might have different conventions here. I hear and use “have gone” quite often.

For instance:

Have they gone (left, departed) yet?

Yes, they have gone (left, departed) or no, they haven’t gone (left, departed) yet.

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Did you go to (attend) the concert last night? No.

Did you go to (attend) a concert last year? No.

Did you go to (attend) a concert in the last decade? No!

Have you ever gone to (ever attended) a concert?

Of course, over at Englishforums, the British user named “Milky” (who coincidentally seems to be you, of course) had the following inflexible and very prescriptive reactions to the sentence “(6) Have you ever gone to a concert?”:

@Milky

For me, 6 is incorrect.

@Milky

Pleeaase, Mr P, 6 is horrible.

Of course, sentence number 6 in that thread (Have you ever gone to a concert?) sounds just fine to my American ears – just as it would to millions of other Americans.

---

@Molly

@Yankee

As I have also already mentioned, “go to the movies” is a common collocation in AmE.

As is “go to the cinema” in my variety of English, but we still say “has/have/had been to the cinema” if the visit is over. I’m assuming that AmEng use is something that developed Stateside and was not brought over from Britain. Am I right?

Well, Jamestown was established in 1607. So, that might be seen as “the arrival of English in North America”. As far as I know, however, there were neither movies nor cinemas in the 1600s. So, obviously it was not possible for the settlers at Jamestown to bring the phrase “go to the cinema” with them to the US. That also rules out any possiblilty of British settlers bringing “been to the cinema” with them.
Etymology of the word “cinema”
Seeing as the word “cinema” originated around 1900 in France, I’d say the Brits didn’t actually develop the word at all, but instead simply copied the French word. In contrast, we Americans seem to have preferred the creation/use a new version of the word “move” (following along the lines of “moving pictures”). The word “move” has been part of the English language for centuries, of course. I’m sure the British settlers at Jamestown did bring the word “move” with them.
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[Molly]

It’s not just my “claim”. Here are some of the North American responses you have already received elsewhere:

But they are, again, personal views - one source. Are there any published papers on this use? Any grammar book entries?

And this is a poor example:

If my plane made an unplanned stop in London, I might later say ‘I have been to London’, but I probably wouldn’t say ‘I went to London’.

Also, your “Milky” comments show once again that you are a sheep to Mr P’s shepherd act. In fact, your comments and responses are becoming so like those of MrP, that one would be forgiven for thinking you are one and the same. Think about it, Amy (?).

Why is it that you get so upset when someone challenges your intuitions about usage? Are you insecure?

Of course, sentence number 6 in that thread (Have you ever gone to a concert?) sounds just fine to my American ears – just as it would to millions of other Americans.

And there’s nothing wrong with that, but in order to teach the form, we need many examples and an awareness of the systematic/canonical nature, if any, of that form?

We are not there yet, are we?

Well, Jamestown was established in 1607. So, that might be seen as “the arrival of English in North America”. As far as I know, however, there were neither movies nor cinemas in the 1600s. So, obviously it was not possible for the settlers at Jamestown to bring the phrase “go to the cinema” with them to the US. That also rules out any possiblilty of British settlers bringing “been to the cinema” with them.

So here again you focus only on that single expression and can tell us very little about the use of the “have gone to” form outside of that. What is the general rule/characteristic of the “have gone to” form in AmEng? That’s what I’m looking for and that’s what can help students.