Ok, first, let’s forget about all the dictionaries for a while.
[color=red]1. I remember once Dozy used the word “[color=red]parked”, can I use it this way:
A: “Where is your car?”
B: “It is parked in a car park nearby.”
[color=red]2. I rememver I might have read something like “[color=red]Spring is come.”
Are these true? If so, and with words like, [color=red]finished, done, gone, broken, interested, disappointed…and all, I’d rather think they all have something to do with a certain kind of [color=red]final state than passive. Yes, it’s true that most of them are done by an outside force, maybe we can put them together with words like, finished, broken…and such; the real problem comes with words like. [color=red]gone, and come. Gone is OK now that it’s very common as in “She’s gone” “My wallet’s gone” (from Seinfeld :P)… but with [color=red]come, that’s really hard for me. I don’t know where to put it. Maybe I should put it with “gone”? Because they are more like “[color=red]She has gone” “Spring has come” to me.
In Passive voice sb/sth receiving an action. So passive voice can be form from transitive verb. (Except the idioms!)
How?
Passive: It is parked in a car park nearby ( by me/ by sb)
Active: I park the car in a car park nearby.
2. Spring is come. For me it is incorrect grammatically.
I would say the Spring is coming.
gone-can be used idiomatically.
He 's gone.=
He is gone.
He has gone
He is not here.
He is dead.
But the past participle what you enumerated:
if you put before them a be (is, was, will be, has been etc.) you will be creating a passive sentence.
Ok, first, let’s forget about all the dictionaries for a while.
I remember once Dozy used the word “[color=red]parked”, can I use it this way:
A: “Where is your car?”
B: “It [color=red]is parked in a car park nearby.”
I rememver I might have read something like “[color=red]Spring is come.”
Are these true? If so, and with words like, finished, done, gone, broken, interested, disappointed…and all, I’d rather think they all have something to do with a certain kind of final state than passive. Yes, it’s true that most of them are done by an outside force, maybe we can put them together with words like, finished, broken…and such; the real problem comes with words like. gone, and come. Gone is OK now that it’s very common as in “She’s gone” “My wallet’s gone” (from Seinfeld :P)… but with come, that’s really hard for me. I don’t know where to put it. Maybe I should put it with “gone”? Because they are more like “She has gone” “Spring has come” to me.
“gone” was suspect to me and I looked it up.
I was right because in the dictionary ‘gone’ is explained as an adjective ( not before noun) and a preposition ( it is dependent of the verb ‘go’).
Meaning as adjective:
1.( of a thing) used up
Where is the coffee? It’s all gone.
2.(of a person )having left a place.
Is Tom here? No he was gone before I arrived.
3. (formal)used to say that a particular situation no longer exist
The days are gone when you could leave your door unlocked at night.
4. (BrE, informal) having been pregnant for the length of time mentioned.
-She is seven months gone.
-How far gone are you ?
idiom: be dead and gone: to be dead
-You’ll be sorry you said that when I’m dead and gone.
meaning as a preposition: later than the time mentioned
(BrE. informal) syn: past
It’s gone six already.
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But come can be a verb,( so of course can be used its past participle for example in a present perfect) and can be a preposition, an exclamation and a noun. But adjective it can’t be.
come as a preposition:
(old-fashioned, informal)
=when the time mentioned comes
-They would have been married forty years come to this June.
-Come next week she’ll will have changed her mind.
come as an exclamation
(old fashioned)
= used when encouraging sb to be sensible or reasonable, or when showing slight disapproval.
-Oh come now,things aren’t as bad as all that.
-Come, come, Miss Jones, you know perfectly well what I mean.
Come (n) as a noun :syn: semen
liquid containing sperm that is produced by the sex organs of men and male animals.
Ok, first, let’s forget about all the dictionaries for a while.
I remember once Dozy used the word “parked”, can I use it this way:
A: “Where is your car?”
B: “It is parked in a car park nearby.”
I rememver I might have read something like “Spring is come.”
Are these true? If so, and with words like, finished, done, gone, broken, interested, disappointed…and all, I’d rather think they all have something to do with a certain kind of final state than passive. Yes, it’s true that most of them are done by an outside force, maybe we can put them together with words like, finished, broken…and such; the real problem comes with words like. gone, and come. Gone is OK now that it’s very common as in “She’s gone” “My wallet’s gone” (from Seinfeld :P)… but with come, that’s really hard for me. I don’t know where to put it. Maybe I should put it with “gone”? Because they are more like “She has gone” “Spring has come” to me.
You had sent to me the same letter three times.
I can’t say anything what I had said.
spring is come it is incorrect because come can’t be an adjective.
“spring is gone” it is correct because gone can be an adjective, so its meaning = the spring is over, the spring is past; Where is the spring? It is already gone.
Right, I think you are describing the adjectival use of participles.
In these cases, 's would usually be interpreted as meaning “has”, not “is”, in which case “gone” cannot be adjectival.
As far as I can think, “come” is not used adjectivally in ordinary modern English. Sentences like your “Spring is come” seem to me to be part way between old-fashioned use of “is” for “has” (i.e. verbal) and adjectival “come”. I am not very clear about this point.
I think the time has come to accept that ‘come’ and ‘go’ and in fact ‘gather’ where this all started off, are used in a style acceptable in the 17th century and now regarded as archaic. When we say: Spring is come - Winter is gone, we are using old forms that are only used today when we want to use this method of expression for special effect. This whole discussion started with the expression - ‘We are gathered …’ This is taken from the text of the Anglican book of prayer that dates back to the 17th century
…
In Modern English we would of course say: We have (come together) gathered …
Discussions on whether ‘gathered’ is adjective or verb should be seen against that background. It would appear reasonable to accept that the worthy people of the 17th century would simply have regarded it as a verb.
Many thanks for your answer. I just finished a letter, because I would like to close this debate.
My letter began that everybody agreed that this is a passive voice.
In #5 permalink you said:
The word ‘gathered’ isn’t used adjectivally…
In #7 permalink you said:
“It has a passive sense with the idea of: we are gathered here (by perhaps a common interest).”
But everything began when Dozy said in the 10# permalink
"we are gathered" is a borderline case that can be construed either as adjectival or as a passive verb.
From then on, we began to discuss that the’ gathered’ could be an adjective or not.
This debate was good for me that I see not every past participle can be an adjective. This is natural for native persons but we have to learn. I have to say that I never expected from dictionaries to substitute the grammar books, I don’t agree I would be a confused thinking person who looks for the solution only in the dictionaries. They are only very good aids when you know what about you want to speak.
I don’t want to show off that I know very well the Hungarian and French grammar and if I will be lucky I would like to know the English grammar also.
If somebody speaks fluently his mother tongue it isn’t sure that he could explain a grammar problem than you. I used to be a teacher and I experienced that the grammar isn’t an easy subject for lot of children.
I knew that if you wanted you could get this problem in order. It is only time of question for you.
Many thanks on behalf of everybody who got involved into this dispute.
I would naturally use “we/they/you are/were gatherered” in modern English. For example, “now that we’re all gathered…”, “they’re all gathered next door” etc. would be natural utterances for me. Maybe perceptions of this differ.
It is interesting what you say because the single thing which was confusing for me that gone (adjective); - Alan said - its use is archaic and O. Learner’s Advanced D. doesn’t say a word about its archaic use. It speaks about as an everyday expression.
You are both native and your opinion is different what can I do? By and by I will learn it.
Many thanks for your letter:
Kati
I was in fact referring to the use as in: Winter is gone.
As for the sentence
I would fully expect to hear the host then say: I am come to tell you that our food is prepared and the dishes await us. Let us not tarry long for dark night is nigh.
While statements such as “winter is gone” sound poetic (or old-fashioned) to me, I don’t think this is always the case with adjectival “gone”. For example, “They were gone by the time I arrived” is natural to me. I can also imagine exclaiming “They’re all gone!” when opening a box of chocolates.
I am referring, although there seems to be some confusion about what I am saying, to ‘gone’ in the sense of ‘Winter is gone’ and ‘come’ as in ‘Spring is come’. Those are the archaic constructions. The example of ‘they were gone’ and the ‘chocolates are gone’, if you’ll forgive the mixed metaphor, is a different kettle of fish because in those examples they (people or chocolates) are not there. They have not gone, as winter has done - betaken itself off.
Many thanks that you make a matter of conscience to open our eyes to the correct grammar.
(I am very similar, for example those unacceptable statements that I feel solecism I will track them because they gave no peace- (but these things were not told by you.)
I am a type of person when my children gave me a maths problem in the evening I was able to be awake till morning to find the solution. I never remember that I couldn’t explain to them the solution in the morning. The maths and the grammar are relatives. Who likes the maths likes the grammar also.
I feel these expressions that ‘the spring is gone,’ ‘the summer is come’- not archaic rather literary. I am sure that I read them not once and never caused problem to understand them.
But there is lot of example when they are not literary.
-He is gone. (gone here not past participle but an adjectival use.)= He isn’t here.
-Where is your money?
-It’s gone.= I spent it/I don’t have it./ I lost.
-Was she at work yesterday?
-No, she was gone.=No, she wasn’t at work./ No she wasn’t there.
But everything began we are gathered here. My problem that we can’t take ‘gathered’ as an adjective-in this meaning it doesn’t exist-only as a past participle so it is a passive sentence. It isn’t equivalent with this previous sentence: The spring is gone.
According dictionaries gone isn’t identical with ‘gone’ (past.part). Gone is another dictionary article, it is an adjective etc. but ‘gathered’ can’t be found as another dictionary article (except two ones-what I mentioned) so this ‘gathered’ is a past participle and so this sentence is a passive sentence.
I quote your sentences because I think of them in the same way…
5#The word ‘gathered’ isn’t used adjectivally
7# “It has a passive sense with the idea of: we are gathered here (by perhaps a common interest).”
