Is there a roadmap to learning English?

English as a Second Language What do you want to talk about?
21

In a ‘narrow’ sense – yes.

In a ‘more wide’ sense, by real cases I meant:

  • when you hire professionals, have some aggreement/contract, pay them some money for their job and expect some results (more or less defined in some terms) - in some reasonable time period :slight_smile:

  • when you follow some systematic approach (even though you’re a self-student and just use some systematically organized materials (like ESL tests at this site :));

  • when you have a roadmap and clearly defined milestones (that allow you to assess progress);

  • when your Teacher – ‘real’ or ‘virtual’ – takes some (even minimal) responsibility for the progress you will/would make, for time and other resources you spend, and for not exceeding your natural limitations (= not burden you higher your current ability. Not falling in ‘teaching rage’ → giving you ‘too much load’ that can make you crazy if you follow all his/her recommendations :slight_smile:

  • etc.

I agree with your point about listening English and changing life habits.
I can only add that Internet-addicted people often tend to ‘replace’ in mind some simple things.

Typical ‘Internet learners’ (self-student) can make hundreds and hundreds online tests, spending lots of time – like a machine! - but actually don’t want even to think in terms of the system of English skills.
They just repress the unpleasant idea that it’s NOT an effective way and NOT a way at all, calming themselves with the pleasant thinking about the ‘job done’ (number of tests made, time spent daily, etc)

I generally believe that - by nature - most people need to be led – and led systematically - and only some people can go (and reach their goals) with no guides/teachers/leaders.
That’s the main reason (to my opinion), why ‘conventional’ classes, grammar books and systems of tests still make sense… In some sense :slight_smile:

22

Tamara, the vast majority our users have learned the basics of the English language through conventional ‘systematic’ classes – otherwise they hardly would be able to find our site and ask questions.
I agree with you, most people need to be led and told what they should do, that’s how a modern society works. With our website we attract people who regard English as a means to achieve goals rather than the goal itself.

I think if you sign up for a traditional English class you pay for something you can get for free elsewhere but you still pay because you lack the self-discipline of creating your own learning system. It’s pretty much like with a fitness center – you pay to do excercises you could do yourself without the machines while breathing fresh air instead of being locked up in a sticky (thouhg air conditioned) room.
How does a conventional language school measure their learner’s progress? What standard do they use? How often have you met people who tell they only speak ‘school English’ which is a far cry from the real thing? I’m not so sure if a structured English class really can be called ‘real’ since it usually creates artificial situations using artificial language.

Can you really learn a language in a classroom in which most of the speakers struggle to build correct sentences? What you need is exposure to authentic dialogues – something you hardly will find in a classroom.

Again, the vast majority of potential English learners will prefer a traditional classroom. The question is how many of them will actually achieve a level that allows them to express their thoughts clearly? As you said, the vast majority of all people want to be led. It’s the small percentage of people who understand the difference between teaching and learning, the difference between consuming information and asking questions, that lead the rest…[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEFL listening discussions: A conversation between a university professor and a student in the professor’s office[YSaerTTEW443543]

23

What exactly do you mean by ‘hiring professionals’? How do you define ‘professional’ and how do you measure their performance? How many people do you know who are doing an excellent job just because they are getting paid ‘some money’ (again, you have to define ‘some money’). And what do you mean when you say ‘some results’? That’s exactly what any conventional language school will commit themselves to: ‘some results that are defined more or less’ (in most cases it probably will be less). How do you measure a person’s communications skills anyway?[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEFL listening discussions: Why does the student need money?[YSaerTTEW443543]

24

Torsten, asking so many general questions is quite impressive (and ‘pressive’ ;)) technique :slight_smile:
but I have no intention to defend the ‘conventional teaching system’ or discuss advantages/disadvantages of different teaching techniques (and teachers themselves :))

Hmm… You’ve almost got my point. Almost.

You see the forum’s memberlist and can easily model the ‘typical case’ and calculate the proportion of users who

(1) register – with joyous yell and claim ‘Wow! Now I’ve found what I wanted! I am going to learn English (!!!) – here and am happy to do that with you’,
(2) send 2-10 messages about themselves,
(3) get lost…

I think this is mainly because many of them are quote young (=immature) and/OR needed (and wanted) to be led,
but can’t find here any distinctive ‘roadmap’ / milestones / program / curriculum. (‘Learning English’ is quite vague goal for immature person, isn’t it?)

And after a some time they feel that, as they’re unable to keep self-motivation from within and have no distinctive ‘milestones’ to assess progress (even though artificial!) - they start thinking that this is more ‘waste of time’ for them, than actual ‘learning English’ :frowning:
Despite lots and lots of excellent materials, many interesting people here and actually brilliant teacher’s answers!

This is just my thought…
(By the way, I myself can keep my motivation high enough, use this site only as a part of my learning process (and ‘conventional classes’, with systematic preparation for the exams, is another part :)) - and so, I’m quite happy with the site (albeit you’ve made me homeless :wink: ).

Tamara

25

:slight_smile:

Hi!

You?ve turned to an interesting theme here.

Torsten, what is your personal goal? I mean as you talk about self-reliance and self-motivation in learning and leadership in conventional systematic-classes? I think conventional systematic-classes are good for teaching basic skills like the most important grammar-rules and a basic vocabulary since I consider that a challenge for the business of a person and additional it might be easier to learn that since mostly in conventional systematic-classes the participants start almost ever on the same level and can study commonly. Now, communicating I consider to be an advanced form of learning as it requires obviously a higher degree of self-reliance and self-motivation. Most people who talk at this site or ask any question normally show a higher interest in learning or improving their skills of the English language and here you can lead to self-reliance, what I expect your aim to be. Am I right understanding you that way?

Michael

26

Hi Michael!

By the way.
Sometimes I read old forum’s threads. In one of them I’ve found very interesting Jamie’s explanation of the difference between
I am studying English and I am learning English. If you want, take a look at it - in the context of the above discussion of conventional classes and systematic approach.

to study versus to learn
[size=75]http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic132.html[/size]

I agree that people pay money motivating themselves.
I also can easily imagine a person who is a disciplined student of conventional classes (even though didactic and tedious), but is getting lost in such a fluent, free of charge and very interesting place (lake :)), as the forum is.

27

Tamara, you keep talking about milestones and progress in a rather general way. What I wanted to know what exactly you were refering to when you started your discussion about roadmaps. You also use such expressions like more or less defined which can mean pretty much anything.

I think what you would have to look at are statistics that show how many Internet forums pop up on every week and how many users subscribe to them. As you know most of those forums look the same as they use the same forum platform software. Signing up for one of those forums takes about 3 minutes if not less. I can’t remember how many forums I have subscribed to myself ever since I have been using the Internet.

Everybody knows that signing up with a forum is free of charge and there is no risk whatsoever. It’s only natural that when a person happens to come across our forum that just sign up for free – it’s a bit like when you are strolling down a shopping mall and the vendors are handing out some freebies. You might not need most of the stuff they are giving out but hey, why not snatch it up, it’s free after all?

Our forum is just an additional feature to our website. It’s a place to meet, exchange information, gather experience and develop new concepts. There are a few simple rules and a lot of freedom. It’s a bit like a workshop for advanced students. As we have established before, the vast majority of people need to be led and told what to do. The question is what is more challenging – working with the vast majority of people or coaching a few leaders? What do you think is more challenging and rewarding for a ‘real professional’ (according to your definition) – explaining the structure of the simple present to 100 people or discussing with 3 people all the many questions that the traditional English classes are not capable of dealing with? Also, what you have to keep in mind when looking at a forum member list is that a substantial portion of all users will frequently log into the forum to read the current threads. They are learning by reading.

How many people who complete a traditional English class are capable of expressing their thoughts in writing? How many of them can type at a decent speed?

You know for many people who speak a Slavic language as their mother tongue, using the English articles is a challenge. That’s why Alan has created a piece that contains a lot of examples that show how the articles are used Articles in English: The vs. A/an
So, when a moderator realizes that a learner needs to work on their articles we can insert that link and that person can work individually. Using the articles correctly is quite a concrete goal and its achievement can be measured. The same holds true for other areas of the English grammar.

Our website is called english-test.net which means we focus on testing a person’s English rather than trying to teach that person. There are so many traditional language schools our there – it’s their job to teach English. Once a student has completed a course in an English language school, they can come to our site and test their English to see how how effective the school program was.[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEFL listening discussions: What problem does the student have?[YSaerTTEW443543]

28

Thank you, Torsten, for your, actually very sound and well-grounded, answer.

It’s really good and interesting to read the forum’s concept in your exposition.

Let’s see:

As I understand, the highlighted phrase is also (or mainly?) concerned the forum, whereas ‘Study English’ is more about using of systematic and (well) structured materials.
Right?

So… We are self-learners here (in the forum), but you (moderators) are not teachers. Just consultants and guides.
That’s clear.

(But… Don’t you see, how often and insisting users tend to call moderators ‘teachers’? As I see, you clearly understand the cause…)

Yes, this is the question that influences the forum’s concept and spirit – implicitly or explicitly.
Taking into account the necessary to keep personal interest(s) and enjoyment for (voluntary) moderators (who are - and that is clear! - high-level professionals).

I don’t actually believe, it’s an effective way. It seems, that you also don’t (that directly follows from your (sound) attitude on complexity of the learning process).

I just wanted to understand better for myself, what I, myself, (1) want to get from the site and (2) can really expect.
I actually spend lots of my time here – sometimes it’s useful (in pure pragmatic sense), sometimes it’s just an enjoyment, sometimes I feel me lost or even being in a doghouse :slight_smile:

You perhaps know well, how important is to make ideal expectations actually real.
Not to become disappointed.

29

Well, we’re now getting close to beating this topic to death. Again, there are so many definitions of ‘systematic’, ‘well-structured’ and ‘studying’. In addition to the free materials and the forum on our site you will find a lot of links to paid services such as Cleverlearn or products like Pimsleur or Rosetta Stone that will provide you with a variety of systematic approaches. Yes, learning and changing your habits is an ongoing process that involves different elements. When it comes to language learning techniques you might also take a closer look at what the experts at Antimoom.com have to say, especially about the value of traditional classroom based language schools. Just google the phrase why we don’t like English classes and click on the second result.[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEFL listening discussions: What is the main weakness of the student’s essay?[YSaerTTEW443543]

30

OK, Torsten.

Thank your for being an excellent opponent on the topic :slight_smile: and for your actually great patience.
And… pardon my English :slight_smile:

Tamara