Perhaps we should be less concerned with my mistakes and more concerned with the state of the English language in general. I don’t think it’s very sensitive of Alan to use another poster’s writings as examples in a negative way. A serious professional should always behave himself.
This is what Alan has told us in his own postings. So unless he is lying I assume he doesn’t know IPA.
Yes, and this is exactly why it is so important to learn how to interpret that data.
On what grounds? Because he writes witty stories?
This may be partially true, but I certainly think you and I have learnt things which Alan hasn’t.
I think most of my quotes are relevant and supportive of what I have myself written. In this particular case, I wanted to highlight that it is the foreign accent that is most likely to make people think you are not a native speaker.
You are right, there always is. So why are you so affronted when somebody who you call a ‘witty story writer’ corrects your English? You obviously have no idea who Alan is or what he has done all his life, but you could display some grandeur by imbibing his advice instead of bending corpus linguistic data in your favour and quoting your beloved John Wells.
Character stems from self-criticism and separate identity.
I see you are smarting because I have dared single out a couple of examples of the way you have used words/expressions. You go on about my confession on not knowing phonetic symbols - this is rather like me saying that I couldn’t ride a bike today to save my life whereas when I was about 50 years younger I could cycle for miles and miles. You have already received accolades on your knowledge of English but my point remains that it isn’t the accent that reveals whether a person is a native speaker or not but the way they use words and the choices they make. Your comment: the main point is that some sentences are accurate, some collocations possible, while others are not. Unusual collocations are not too uncommon in native written English. almost had me fall off my swivel chair. In laughter, I admit. You seem to regard speaking/writing English as some kind of mechanical process that follows rigid lines and you quote John Wells or some corpus or other to support you or as you would say and I wouldn’t, aid you. These sources are only cataloguing what others have said or written. They do not get to the heart of someone’s first language learnt at mother’s knee, as it were. I am familiar with written and spoken English used by those for whom it isn’t a first language and can usually detect this.
You, EU (and why not use your actual name for pity’s sake) may delve into corpus after corpus, research every reference book written on the use of English but I wager you’ll still come out sounding really like a non-native English User. You have to live the language. I could pick out further examples from your posts to illustrate my point but I fear you will then accuse me of misbehaviour.
This is a postscript to the post above in which I should have nailed this quote from EU
I can confess to being phonetically rusty (now check that out in one of your corpora) but I can’t recall having claimed what you have said I have, personally. All I can say in my defence is WYSIWYG, in the best of all possible tastes.
I honestly cannot see why you always have to go on about my use of English. I never asked for “corrections”. On the contrary, I have stated explicitly that I do not wish to receive any such feedback whatsoever from you, Alan. Why can’t you simply honour my request?
I do prefer posting anonymously and intend to continue doing so as I would not benefit from making a fool of myself in public. It is interesting that you think there are so many non-native features to be detected in my English when other people clearly detect very few such features. Some of the “suggestions” you make can be regarded as alternative wording rather than real “corrections”, as many other native speakers have put it.
For your information, I would certainly not use ‘aid you’ in place of ‘support you’ as that would sound strange to me. How do you explain that the expressions you quoted have been used in “my” way by native English speakers?
My IELTS score indicates that I, “use a wide range of vocabulary with very natural control of lexical features with rare minor errors occurring only as slips”. It is clear from this description that my writing should be native-like in most of its features instead of being, as you claim, very obviously the accomplishment of a non-native speaker.
Because it simply is inappropriate to correct other people without their permission. Alan does not correct your English, Jamie’s English, or Conchita’s English. Alan quite clearly does not appreciate it when people correct mistakes he has made, so I suppose I am just a bit “Alanish” in this respect.
Let’s just stick to the facts: I haven’t ‘corrected’ what you have written. I have commented on it. And I did this to illustrate my belief that it is possible to notice from what a person writes in English whether it is their native language or not.
Why are you so damn touchy when people point out that your English has mistakes in it? It’s not that you don’t want Alan correcting you, it’s that you don’t want ANYONE correcting you.
For the record, Alan has pointed out things in my own English that he finds odd. Sometimes they are American expressions that he’s unfamiliar with, and sometimes I really have made a mistake, even though I’m a native speaker. When I have actually made a mistake, I just have to swallow my pride and admit it. We all correct Conchita’s English when we disagree with it, and she’s very gracious about taking the criticism. So your idea that other people don’t get corrected is a monumental bit of selective perception.
Those verbal explanations of the IELTS score are simply canned descriptions that are generated by computer. I don’t know how you can flatter yourself with such a thing.
People sometimes correct me, but all those people do it as it is part of their job. They do not correct me if I write things that they are not supposed to be correcting. They also do not point out that my mistakes are typical of non-native speakers, as any such comments are mostly unproductive unless the mistakes are systematic. Sometimes it is difficult to tell whether someone has really made a mistake or just used an unusual collocation as in “supply assistance” as opposed to “provide assistance”.
Such descriptions are supposed to describe the candidate’s performance in English. At Band 9 level, your writing is supposed to be “as good as an educated native speaker’s”, whatever this may mean.
How does one define ‘native speaker’ anyway? I think distinctions like this are mostly irrelevant. It is often possible to assume that someone is not a native speaker based on how they write a language, but this is not always possible. I think you have read texts written by non-native speakers without noticing or paying attention to it.
Oh, here we go again! How does one define “native speaker” anyway? What is reality? Who’s to say what’s insane? Don’t you think the people in Cuba just have a different concept of human rights? Who’s to say what’s moral? Isn’t everything relative?
However, I know people for whom English would be considered a native language, even though they didn’t start learning until they were 5, and they didn’t learn it at mother’s knee, but among their peers on the playground.
My mother’s knees should have provided me with the faculty of speech in the English language, but it was the German speaking playground that won me over. Having lived in Ireland for a year, it was only at the age of 8 that I could speak English fluently. 20 years down the road I had lost my German native abilities, and a mischievous linguist could argue that I don’t have a native language at all.
Different to many English users, I don’t really care. I can’t be fussed with acquiring an accent that is either close to the lost ideals of Dukes or bogmen. I do agree that you need goals, but perfection seems to high-strung a goal. To me the chocolate is more important than the box. If a viable message is wrapped up in an English, American or Finnish accent, then I don’t care about mistakes on a phonological or syntactical level.
I think reconsidering your goals could be an option. Relax into the uneradicated features of whatever accent you could possibly have, don’t think too much about your non-native-speaker-like slips and don’t try to be what you are not. People will respect you more if you convey a natural impression.
Alan was right, you can always disguise a non-native speaker, and a non-native speaker who desperately presents himself as a native speaker or native-speaker-like speaker or whatever brilliant speaker is not much short of cutting a pitiful figure. And, as mad as it may seem, you will probably get closer to your goals in the end if you accept your weaknesses.
I don’t want to patronise you. It’s just that the bottom line of all our discussions revolves around your perfectionist demeanour, and I think it’s time we move on.
Alas, of the Russian language 