Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you?

English as a Second Language What do you want to talk about?
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Greetings Jamie(K), Ralf, Stew, Alan, Torsten & everybody in this cultural discussion round.

I have obviously noticed that there is a heated discussion going on between Jamie(K), Ralf, Stew and a few others which involves some insults or sarcasms.

I have not been here long enough to read everything to determine the attitudes and origins behind it all, so I won?t add any criticisms or platitudes and certainly don?t wish to get the last word in.
I will, however compliment you all on what I?ve read so far.
I have been quite impressed with your written articulations and expressions.

Now, I would like to support Jamie(K)?s view as an American living in America and his experiences in working with immigrants of many countries who have come to the land of milk & honey and have difficulties or simply won?t adapt to their new culture.

First, we have to acknowledge that Jamie(K)`s experiences are real and cannot simply be dealt at the turn of a hand or with a few condescending statements.
I?m a very positive person and until now have only taught English to Germans. I don?t know what it?s like to teach a class of mixed nationality. Maybe my positive attitude will get beaten up. I doubt it, but it could happen so who am I to judge.

Secondly, Jamie(K)?s negative reaction to the Germans or Arabs or whoever, I would say comes from a man who is doing his best to help these people and is sincere.
When he has to confront people who are resentful and don?t wish to change and be flexible to their host country and are also insulting into the bargain, it is no wonder that Jamie(K) feels mishandled and reacts as he does.
But like most experiences, it?s all sent to test us and if it doesn?t kill us, we will grow and it will make us strong and probably immune.

I have similar experiences here in Germany and I have personally met or even worked with very nice Stasi and Nazi types and of course the bad guys. Sometimes I get real pissed off with the hard cases but they are in the minority and the rest of the Germans I meet are just decent human beings. I also live in their country so I have to adapt and be more understanding - which I am - but I still maintain my dignity and values.
If I am confronted with a person who is rude or bad mannered I tell them in no uncertain terms what I think of their behaviour ; that has more to do with their upbringing and personality and not their culture.

Thirdly or finally, that many immigrants who come to America don?t appreciate all the western customs and values - which is OK - but I think some bring with them or develop a certain resentment and animosity to Americans because of some trauma they?ve experienced directly or indirectly via the USA?s politics.
Especially the religious hardliners who then think that the country that hosts them doesn?t deserve their respect and even need converting to their doctrine. Worse, that Americans are lower than them in morals and values.
What many of these people don?t realise is that maybe 50% of Americans don?t agree with the present politics and have to suffer just as much as they do when they are abroad.
They need to understand that Americans are also decent caring people and have to work hard to survive as any normal working person.
When I see beggars on the street in L.A. or New York then that is just as excruciating as a beggar in India, Brazil, Africa, Indonesia etc. that?s no bloody life.

I think these are the three main points relevent to what Jamie(K) is trying to defend or get across.

There are many German people who resent the so called “foreigners” in their country and their judgements can be felt with just as must penetration as that of any religious fanatic who thinks they know better how to think for you and run your life. Germany has been a “melting pot” for many nations since the last war but some Germans don?t want to recognise that and that is also quite OK. It is after all their home and culture.

The first time I experienced anything near a culture shock at home on the GB island was when I lived in a small town in England on the coast where an Indian family took over the local red Post Office and started selling clothes like on a market stall beside the good old British postage stamp. I like Indian people and their culture, but still it was bit uncomfortable at first.
That was 24 years ago. Today, you will see Indians with businesses all over the British Islands and not just in Post Offices and I think that?s quite OK.

Another wierd cultural experience was when I was in the car export business and dealt with an importer of German cars in Glasgow, Scotland. On the phone he spoke with a strong Glaswegian accent but his name was ~ Singh and came from Pakistan.

A Frenchman, German, Spaniard, Norwegian etc. would also feel a bit uncomfortable in such a situation until they got used to it. The same goes for an Asian or African who will feel the same with a European visitor.

Let?s face it - one day on this planet there will be a race of tan.

Everybody will have the same skin colour and we will all be earthlings discussing the influx of migrant or guest workers from Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, Antares etc.

Take a look at the “Star Trek” TV series or the “Star Wars” films.
Gene Rodenberry and George Lucas have given us a clue to the future.

I?m sure we?ll all be part of it in our next life.

Best wishes, Bruce.

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Hi Everybody,

lost_soul & Jamie(K) wrote about … Equality in the US and the ensuing discussion making it?s political rounds.

Think about it !

Equality is a judgement.

Ask yourself whose judging?

Equality is unfair! (Is that a joke … or not?)

Who the f… wants to be equal?

People want to have the freedom to be themselves, they don?t want to be equal.
Did somebody bring Lenin back to life.
This is just one more dichotomous psychological trick to keep everybody busy, steamed-up and all bent out of shape that they can?t see the wood for the trees.
That?s what people in power do.
They continually create idiotic concepts.
We are looking at and arguing about a bullshit problem (created by them) that doesn?t really exist so we don?t look at those who are controlling us and trying to steal our life (and money) from us.
That?s the real trick.

And naturally, this bullshit problem is going to cost a whole heap of tax payers money. Read my lips …

Has anybody read George Orwell?s book Animal Farm lately. Or maybe 1984. Or Auldous Huxley?s - Brave New World. That?s where we are all headed if we carry on listening to these political idiots and don?t stop playing their stupid life wasting games.

Let?s stop judging and start living.
What do you think will happen to these made up problems if we stop giving them energy and sooooo much attention?

Best wishes, Bruce.

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During my first year in Germany, I found out that I had a better concept than quite a few Germans did about where exactly in Germany Munich is located. I remember being quite dumbfounded about that. I also heard regular criticism that ‘Americans don’t know this’ and ‘Americans don’t know that’, but those same critical people were ignorant of tons of things that are quite well known on the other side of the pond (geography as well as other things). Speaking of geographical ignorance/misconceptions, I remember once being tickled pink by some German tourists who were talking about things they wanted to see and do while they were here in the US. They told me they wanted to visit Niagara Falls and Washington, DC. Now, that’s fine, but their initial idea was that they could drive to and visit both places in one day (with NYC as the starting point)! :shock:
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This is a very true and critical observation. For the first time in the country’s history, a rise of xenophobia can be observed in Ireland today. Never before in its history was Ireland considered a country of immigration. People emigrated to all kinds of foreign countries, and as far as I know generally well received. Even people from the so called arch rival England do not regard the Irish as foreign matter in their country. At least not today. Now that there is an influx of immigrants, many people openly resent the Polish, Russians, Lithuanian, Rumanian, etc. As long as you leave speedily you’re all right, but please don’t stay.

I don’t subscribe to that. I have experienced enough prejudice from a very early age on myself. Being called a Nazi, Jew hater and war loser in primary school just because it was known that my father was a German is something I have learnt to resent.

I utterly despise nationalism in all its ugly shades. If someone feels cornered just because a comment made on his country and then triggers measures of self-defence, it simply reveals the person’s weakness. And if self-denfense is hence used as an excuse for a counter attack, vulnerability can turn into danger.

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I have never been to Greece, but I show enough respect, at least, to pronounce gyro “year-oh”, which I think is roughly how it would be pronounced in Greece.

You stand in line here and hear, quite frequently, the following American screw-ups:

  • Gai-ro (hard G)
  • Jai-ro (soft)

In my illuistration, “ai” is meant to convey the vowel-sound in “hi”.

Same with Spanish – many in Nashville pronounce Buena Vista (it’s a road here) as “BYOO-na VIHSta” instead of “BWAYnah VEEStah”

French:

Des Moines (IA) is pronounced “d’moin” by the locals – which I think is more or less how it would be pronounced in French.

Meanwhile, Des Plaines (IL) is pronounced “Des Planes”

I try to pronounce things they way they’re pronounced in their native language, and sometimes get irritated when others do not. (minor pet peeve)

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It is interesting to read that you see the correct pronunciation of a word as a sign of respect for a culture. I think so too. In Germany people are terribly fond of English words, and it is at times confusing to hear 3 different phonological versions of a word from different speakers. Maybe you could take it as a sign of respect, more rather as a sign of a mysterious affinity with the English language. In Britain and Ireland people are less careful with foreign words. Just ask yourself how you would pronounce words originating from French in a very Anglophile way, and you have the answer.

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So maybe this circumstance could be called the American tightrope. If I understand you correctly, an American can’t help but voicing their opinion in a loud and explicit way in order to get heard. And if he does so by making a big show, he is likely to be accused of Hollywood behaviour and self-righteousness.

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Hi Ralf

I think you have misunderstood Jamie. But, I’ll wait for Jamie to confirm that rather than try to speak for him.
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Well, I think he was implying that the “big show” meant as much as having to state generalisations in an elaborate and politically correct way, whereas Europeans do not need to take such measures in order to clarify their cultural adeptness.

Since this whole discussion has somewhat inevitably drifted off to debating American specifics, I must admit I was deliberately pushing it into the Hollywood corner to tackle yet another American stereotype/generalisation.

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Ralf, yeah

I think that the attempt to pronounce foreign words correctly is a sign of respect for the homeland(s) of those foreign words – and if one succeeds, or almost succeeds, at getting the words right… that’s icing on the cake.

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I’ve noticed that in this thread (as well as in most other threads on this forum) most discussions show a tendency to become very acrid and personal before they drift apart. Whether or not this may be due to conventional personality conflicts, it is intriguing to see that the waves usually seem to bluster from one side of the Atlantic to the other.

When discussing idiosyncrasies of the English languages, cultural diversities and means to help other people acquire a language, one might think that a mutual language should provide for a common ground.

I must confess that my personal group of friends here in Leipzig/Germany mainly consists of people from Britain and Ireland. There are a few Germans and Americans I associate with, but most of my time is spent with ‘island monkeys’, as people call the Brits and Irish here.

Still, language should help to communicate. And if prezbucky says

is it not curious to see that a common language doesn’t help intercultural communication? Or would you more rather say that people generally find it hard to accept a variety of accent/language different from their own?

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Hi Ralf,

Thank you for your succinct comments. It would certainly be a shame if you were to be put off by the ‘acrid’ (as you describe it) atmosphere that persists at the moment on some of the forums. Please continue with your posts.

Alan

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Amen to that. Ralf is polite, lively in his ideas, and well-spoken.

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Hi Ralf

Since Jamie has not posted here in almost a week, I’ll tell you how I understood him. I did not understand Jamie’s use of “big show” to mean that Americans “can’t help but voicing their opinion in a loud and explicit way” (as you so very stereotypically put it). I understood that Jamie meant that Americans frequently find it necessary to elaborate far more than would be the case if someone else (i.e. from a different country) said exactly the same thing.

I experienced plenty of cultural stereotyping in Europe, so I really don’t think that Europeans are any more “culturally adept” than anybody else.

As far as cultural differences go, there are also differences from area to area right here in the US. I remember having a very interesting discussion with a guy I met who lives in Alabama. There are some aspects of the culture down there that are pretty “foreign” to me. (I’m from the Northeast, and Alabama is in the deep South.)
.

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Hi Amy,

You’re definitely right in what you said. However, I feel that my quote “can’t help but voicing their opinion…” is somewhat taken out of context. I verified this comment in my next entry by saying “I think he was implying that the “big show” meant as much as having to state generalisations in an elaborate and politically correct way, whereas Europeans do not need to take such measures in order to clarify their cultural adeptness.”

I’m not here to cement stereotypes, merely to discuss partiality. The discussions on this forum show that there is always facility for converting an utterance one way or the other. If I wasn’t simply trying to make sense of all those preoccupations (to avoid the terms generalisations and stereotypes) which seem to be pretty much a global endemic, I think I would be wasting my time.

Please do not consider this a declaration of yet another turf war. At the end of the day one would imagine that a mutual language ought to/could have enough potential to deliver a bland climate for communication…

And I’m interested, what cultural aspects did you experience as “pretty foreign” in Alabama? I think I have seen most American states, but being a foreigner abroad for a rather short time only provides you with display detail due to insufficient time to experience indigenous qualities.

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Hi Ralf

I interviewed the guy from Alabama (who I mentioned above) because I was conducting courses and seminars for Germans who were being sent there on two-year job assignments. I’d heard generalizations made about life down there, but wanted to get some perspective from the horse’s mouth. Besides the fact that an Alabama accent is very different from mine, I guess three things stood out as especially different:

  1. Church and the role it plays in everyday life.
  2. Gun ownership
  3. Home-schooling

Church attendance in the northeastern US is comparable to what I witnessed in Swabia: Some people go to church every Sunday, even more go to church only sporadically, and many hardly ever go. When I asked the guy from Alabama whether he went to church every Sunday, his answer was “At least”. It seems that the church is much more a part of people’s everyday lives in the South than it is in the Northeast.

When I went to Germany, I discovered that Germans thought that all Americans had guns. Now, I’ve never owned a gun and my family and friends are not gun-owners either. So, I was a little puzzled by this stereotype. When I asked this fellow from Alabama whether he had a gun, he told me that he not only had ‘a’ gun, but he also had nine more. His estimation was that most of the people he knows are also gun-owners. Our gun conversation was pretty interesting.

It also seems that far more parents home-school their kids in the South.
.

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Ireland is similar in this respect. Growing up there, you find it hard to escape the church or religion. I think I lost my religious appeal during my studies because I was away from home for the first time ever. But my mother would still call me to ask whether I had attended mass. And, without further ado, I’d tell her that I did so after coming home from the Sunday match I had watched in a pub.

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There’s a good boy!

Actually, in Spanish it should be pronounced:

  • ‘bwe’ (vowel sound as in ‘sweat’)

  • ‘na’ (no equivalent vowel sound in English, but similar to the one in ‘cut’ and slightly longer)*

  • ‘bis’ (no equivalent vowel sound in English, but similar to the one in ‘fish’ and slightly longer)**

  • ‘ta’ (no equivalent consonant sound in English – the Spanish ‘t’ is softer than in English) + (*)

**The Spanish ‘v’ sounds like a ‘b’.

Your version of ‘Buena Vista’, however, is quite good (and probably much simpler, too!).

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I think it’s one or more of the following:

  1. The person doesn’t care
  2. The person isn’t educated regarding the correct pronunciation
  3. The person is physically unable to pronounce the word correctly.
  4. Arrogance/stubbornness: The person pridefully – with malice aforethought – mispronounces the word. “We’re not in Greece, we’re in America, and that’s how Americans say it,” and “I don’t give a damn how the Spanish pronounce it – I say ‘byoonah’,” would be how the person might reply were you to call him on the mispronunciation.
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We can work on #2, but 1 and 4 are/would be tough to conquer.

#3 – physical limitations – I’m not sure about. Can we teach people to pronounce things correctly even when it seems hopeless? I suppose that would depend on the skill of the teacher and the willingness of the student to practice.

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