Competent, why have you been dodging the questions I asked you in my previous post? As for useful websites, I think we both can post them here until the cows come home without really reaching a conclusion. I could post dozens and dozens of websites that are run by ESL learners who have achieved an excellent command of the English language (you wouldn’t recognize them as ESL learners at all.) All of them say, that trying to cram so called grammar rules (again, nobody seems to know how many of them really exist) simply doesn’t work. A lot of Chinese students know more ‘grammar rules’ than the average native speaker but they can’t neither speak nor understand English.
Oh, one last question: How many of the websites you posted are run by people who have actually learned at least one foreign language themselves? I wouldn’t trust a car mechanic who says he’s never owned or driven a car.[YSaerTTEW443543]
Successful learning and mastering of English as a second/foreign language depends on a number of factors. In addition to learning English pronunciation, grammar and vocabulary through explanations, examples and exercises, there should be adequate regular long-term practice in listening, speaking, reading and writing especially through communication with native English speakers.
Sounds like a quote from a textbook ;-), rather impersonal and passive. I take it you won’t answer my questions – that’s actually what I had expected. Based on the questions here on the forum and my experience as a language trainer I can say that learning pronunciation through explanations is almost impossible. How can you explain how a word is pronounced? How can you explain why words like inquiry, often, advertisement, mobile, etc. have at least two if not three or more different pronunciations? How do you explain that? And once you have explained this phenomenon, what exactly do you expect your learners to do with that explanation?
By the way, I bet that a large portion if not the majority of all ESL learners spell the word ‘grammar’ wrong.[YSaerTTEW443543]
Your questions to me and your allegations on English grammar issues prove that you have weak knowledge of ESL/EFL methodology supported and practised by ESL/EFL teachers in educational institutions worldwide. How can you work as a language trainer productively? Do not forget that immigrants with poor knowledge of English living in English speaking countries prefer studying English grammar especially for employment, professional and business purposes. They do not rely solely on “exposure” to English to succeed in mastering English. Exposure to English by foreign learners without studying English pronunciation, grammar and vocabulary is a much more difficult and a longer way
to mastering English than combining studying English with practice in listening, speaking, reading and writing especially through communication with native English speakers.
Can you tell me what educational institutions (language schools, colleges, universities, etc.) worldwide support and practise your English language learning methodology? I’d like to contact them.
Hi Competent, if you google my name you will find more about me and my background. You will also find what ESL learners say about my ideas when it comes to learning English. Unfortunately, I can’t do the same with your name because I don’t know it and might never learn it. I’m sure you have your reasons for that.
Also, why do you keep dodging most of my questions. For example, if you are so competent regarding English grammar, you should know how many English grammar rules there are. Do you? In addition, you should know how many English pronunciation rules there are. I doubt you do.
As for ‘educational institutions’ I’ve been working for and with, I could name but a few but then again I don’t think you really can learn English at such an institution. An institution is just was it is – an organization in which the majority of people DOESN’T speak proper English. You may want to google the phrase “why we don’t like English courses” and you will find an article written by too ESL speakers and owners of an ESL company that explains in more detail what I mean.
The only ‘place’ where you can really learn English is life itself where you have the freedom to use your brain and make your own choices.[YSaerTTEW443543]
English grammar books do not enumerate grammar rules because it is irrelevant how many grammar rules there are depending on one’s subjective discretion.
Immigrants in English speaking countries who do not learn and practice English on their own in addition to formal classes adequately, regularly and for the long term on all relevant real life topics thoroughly, achieve poor results.
Many foreign learners do not learn English in a proper way and for an adequate period of time to master English. They should not neglect any of the following aspects of English: phonetics, grammar, vocabulary, listening, speaking (especially communication with native English speakers), reading and writing. I wrote very helpful articles for foreign learners on how to learn various aspects of English sooner and in a more effective way. I’ve also provided a lot of other valuable information for ESL/EFL learners. I’ve received a large number of positive responses to my English learning articles suitable for learning many languages. You also told me that my articles are helpful to ESL/EFL learners. I’ve finished my English teaching activity. Do you think your English materials are superior to the materials I advise ESL/EFL learners to use and how to use? Do you help ESL/EFL learners with your advice more than I do?
Hi Competent, I think it’s not so much about whose ideas and suggestions are superior to those of another person’s. Different ESL have different ways of learners and they also have different needs. Some might indeed prefer to use traditional gammar and exercise books while others primarily use authentic resources. Most of them probably use a combination of methods, materials and resources. What I have seen with many learners is that they had been trying to learn as many grammar and pronunciation rules as possible without learning how to use them.[YSaerTTEW443543]
There is a way for foreign learners to combine learning of English grammar with thematic learning of fixed conversational phrases at each lesson.
I can give ESL/EFL learners practical suggestions on mastering English on their own.
Initially they could combine self-study (teach yourself) books for learning English with English phrase books and conversation books. Such books often come with audio and even video aid. Teach yourself books for learning English may be monolingual (in English only) or bilingual, cover major English pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary, some conversation, and have key (answers to exercises) for self-check which is important. The duration of each lesson may be between one hour and two hours every day.
Learn English pronunciation including intonation (major rules of reading English letters, the articulation of vowels and consonants, stress in words, phrases and intonation in sentences). Do practical phonetic exercises that include listening to and pronouncing of words, phrases and sentences.
After mastering English pronunciation, learners can learn English grammar and practise grammar rules in communicative grammar exercises with real life content that have key for self-check. They would also learn a certain number of English vocabulary in grammar exercises. There are English grammar practice books with key for learners at beginning, intermediate and advanced levels as well.
To make learning English more interesting learners can study at each lesson a certain number of fixed thematic conversational phrases that do not require grammar knowledge (for example, greetings, forms of addressing a person, thanks, well-wishing, apology, etc.). It is preferable to listen to audio recordings of such phrases that must be memorised through listening, multiple reading and self-check.
After mastering major English grammar and fixed conversational phrases learners can concentrate on mastering everyday conversational topics (that require English grammar knowledge) and vocabulary from English phrase books, conversation books, websites, audio and video aids.
Learn each conversation topic in the following order:
Listen to and pronounce each sentence of English conversations on audio recordings (thematic dialogues and narrative texts with transcripts).
Speaking on each conversation topic (imitation of dialogues (role play), ready-made thematic questions and answers with helpful content for using in daily life, narrations/telling stories, talking points and discussions of issues).
Learning of additional conversation sentences and vocabulary from comprehensive English phrase books and conversation books with useful usage sentences. Making up one’s own sentences with difficult vocabulary for potential use in daily life.
Extensive reading of thematic texts and materials from various sources. Telling the content of thematic texts.
Writing on real life topics.
Master English vocabulary thoroughly from general thematic English dictionaries combined with English synonym dictionaries that provide vocabulary usage explanations and example sentences.
Below are the most important English synonym dictionaries:
Choose the Right Word (by S.I.Hayakawa, E. Ehrlich, 1994, New York, USA, 514 pages and long index of words).
Webster’s New Dictionary of Synonyms.
Langenscheidt Pocket Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Synonyms and Antonyms (explains differences in synonym meanings, paperback, 1998, 448 pages).
English Synonyms and Antonyms (book by James Champlin Fernald, paperback, 2010, over 7500 synonyms explained on 375 pages; 584 pages in total).
THEMATIC GENERAL ENGLISH DICTIONARIES (extremely important for logical and quicker vocabulary learning):
Longman Language Activator (Unique idea production English dictionary, very valuable for solid vocabulary learning).
There is also Longman Pocket Activator Dictionary. Longman English dictionaries are the most authoritative.
Longman Lexicon of Contemporary English.
The Oxford-Duden Pictorial English Dictionary (by J. Pheby, over 28,000 entries, 1995, 816 pages).
Oxford Learner’s Wordfinder Dictionary.
Word Menu (dictionary by Stephen Glazier, Random House, USA, over 75,000 words arranged by subject matter).
Cambridge Word Selector/Routes.
NTC’s Dictionary of Everyday American English Expressions (over 7,000 phrases arranged by topics).
I believe it is more effective to combine grammar practice and conversation practice that is based on known grammar material. Communicative grammar exercises serve that purpose. After all major grammar is mastered additional extensive in-depth conversation practice on all relevant topics for potential practical use in daily life is expedient and necessary to develop good communication skills.
For more insight read my articles on learning English grammar, vocabulary and on practising listening comprehension, speaking and reading. Learners can find them in this forum.
Some important thoughts came to me that you may find helpful to develop your views not only on learning English grammar. Just do not jump to hasty conclusions.
My former students claimed that my grammar approach worked well for them.
I would argue that first a foreign learner must learn at least major English grammar from a grammar textbook that contains explanations, examples and exercises before being able to communicate grammatically correctly in real life with native speakers of English. It is a good idea for learners to study just one grammar rule (not several rules) at a time followed by usage examples and and practising exercises with daily life content that illustrate that particular rule. Gradually English grammar can be learned this way up to the advanced level within two years or even sooner depending on the learner. The duration of each everyday lesson may be between one hour and two hours. Only the right amount of material can be absorbed by the particular learner. Most learners cannot afford more than two hours a day to learn English without strain.
In the process of learning English grammar learners can devote a portion of time at each lesson for learning first fixed thematic conversational phrases, and then based on known grammar concentrate on listening, speaking, reading and writing practice on each daily life topic and on thematic vocabulary expansion.
Hi Competent, thanks a lot for this. Can you please give me one example of what you mean by ‘grammar rule’? So far we have been talking in very abstract terms. Why not make it a bit more practical? Give us an example of how exactly your method works.[YSaerTTEW443543]
Please explore the courses and grammar practice books below. This will answer your questions how English grammar rules are explained and practised. I have no time for preparing a long English lesson for you. Do not take me wrong. I cannot invent some better English materials than the popular ones (according to my former students).
I’d recommend learners the following four skills English courses:
Language to Go (elementary - upper intermediate levels, all-in-one course, Longman, UK).
Language to Go is a four-level course with international appeal for adult learners of English. It is available at Elementary, Pre-Intermediate, Intermediate and Upper Intermediate levels, each offering 40-60 teaching hours. It is the ideal course for the busy student, and can be used on short or intensive courses. At each level the components are the Students’ Book with Phrasebook, Class Cassette/CD, and Teacher’s Resource Book.
Essential grammar practised and revisited regularly throughout the syllabus; students can join the course at any stage and still cover the key language points;
Memorable dialogues at the end of each lesson summarise the main language to go!;
Built-in Practice section, Grammar reference and a FREE Phrasebook in the Students’ Book.
Spectrum: A Communicative Course in English (USA), by Diane Warshawksy and Sandra Costinett (Donald R.H. Byrd, Project Director), is a complete six-level, four skills course for adult and young adult learners of English. Spectrum features a unique “natural” approach to language learning: Rich language input is provided in authentic conversations accompanied by receptive activities that help students absorb new functions, structures, and vocabulary. Real-life language tasks offer both focused practice and opportunities for natural interaction, promoting both fluency and accuracy. Students progress from the beginning to the advanced level as they follow a comprehensive and carefully graded syllabus. Spectrum also features: *Thematically based lessons *Comprehensive coverage of all four skills *Listening activities in both the Student Book and Workbook *An audio program with authentic-sounding conversations, telephone messages, public announcements, and broadcasts *A complete testing package
The New Cambridge English Course is a four-level course for learners of English.
The New Cambridge English Course is a course teachers and students can rely on to cover the complete range and depth of language and skills needed from beginner to upper-intermediate level. Each level is designed to provide at least 72 hours of class work using the Student’s Book, with additional self-study material provided in the Practice Book. The course has a proven multi-syllabus approach which integrates work on all the vital aspects of language study: grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, skills, notions and functions.
Related materials for MORE GRAMMAR PLUS: A Communicative Course.
Through engaging and creative contexts, GRAMMAR PLUS and More Grammar Plus provide extensive grammar practice for adult and young adult students. The texts integrate structure practice with relevant themes, such as choices and consequences, technology, and marriage. This two-level course, taking students from the beginning to high-intermediate level, provides an effective approach to grammar.
Features:
– Using a multi-skill approach, students develop the four skills through a pedagogically sound sequencing of activities, including both controlled and communicative practice.
– A variety of student-centered activities address different learning styles.
– Clear, concise grammar charts are both teacher- and student-friendly.
– Appendices give students tools for review and reinforcement.
– Cumulative end-of-unit, midterm and final tests.
– Multi-skill Workbooks provide additional grammar and language skill practice.
– Teacher’s Guides contain teaching tips, thorough grammar explanations, ideas for presenting confusing grammar points, listening scripts, and answer keys.
– Classroom audio cassettes offer a variety of listening activities to help students develop listening skills.
– Rich content for grammar practice motivates and accentuates learning.
– Features typical trouble spots for second language learners to extend students’ understanding of the structures presented.
450+ Interactive Activities, Grammar Exercises, and Tests
300 Practical Conversations
4 Interactive Games to improve memory, vocabulary, and spelling skills
AudioMate Set for your CD/iPod/MP3 player.
Lessons For Life English programs develop the specific skills needed to succeed in learning English, including reading, writing, listening, speaking, vocabulary, grammar, and culture.
Practical English is the ideal course for anyone wanting to quickly improve their English language skills. With 300 lessons, custom-generated learning paths tailored to each learner’s needs, exciting multimedia content and fun, interactive activities, learning English has never been more effective. reallyenglish.com/our-learni … al-english
There are also popular English grammar practice books for each level:
Basic Grammar in Use (by Raymond Murphy, Cambridge University Press, for high-beginning to low-intermediate students).
Grammar in Use (by Raymond Murphy, Cambridge University Press, with answers, intermediate level).
The Good Grammar Book (by Michael Swan and Catherine Walter, Oxford, beginner - low intermediate level, suitable for secondary school students and for adults)
Oxford Practice Grammar (by John Eastwood; basic, intermediate and advanced level books).
Longman English Grammar Practice.
In my opinion these materials ought to meet your students’ needs. Let me know what English courses you prefer and why.
“I have done this work already”.
“I have known him for many years (I’ve known him for many years)”.
First you have to explain clearly to the learner the function of the Present Perfect Tense (what action it may express). Take one kind of action at a time to explain briefly (concisely) the use of the Present Perfect Tense, how it is formed with regular and irregular verbs (have/has + participle 2), and provide a few realistic usage examples.
First take affirmative declarative sentences with every personal pronoun in examples (make a grammar table):
“I (you, we, they) have done this work”.
“He (she, my friend, etc.) has done this work”.
Then take negative declarative sentences, then interrogative sentences with question words (who, when, what, etc.) and without a question word:
“What work have you done already?”
“Have you done this work?”
After each kind of usage examples practise exercises to master the material.
Hi Compentent, why do you always keep refer to all those books? You write all those long messages quoting grammar books but when it comes to giving just one single example of what you have learned from those books you dodge my question. I’m familiar with a few books you have quoted and I don’t think that Raymond Murphy has ever used the term ‘grammar rule’. What he shows are some examples of grammar patterns that he has detected. I’m not looking for any grammar books for my ‘students’. (I also don’t refer to them as ‘students’ because many of them have more life experience than me.) What I wanted to know from you is if you actually can give us one single example of a grammar rule. All your lenghty posts have demonstrated that you actually can’t.[YSaerTTEW443543]
In post #34 I gave you examples of grammar rules and how they can be explained and practised. Haven’t you read this post?
Previously I also explained to you the difference between a grammatical rule and a grammatical pattern (examples of rules). Every learner understands what I’m talking about. What don’t you understand in my explanations?
Many thanks for this example. So what if I say ‘I did this work already’ would that be wrong? Also, what about if I say ‘Did you do this work already’ or ‘Did you do this work’? Those clearly are correct sentences. What rule applies here?[YSaerTTEW443543]
Why have you not answered my questions/Why did you not answer my questions? Again, what you have given me are some quotes from your grammar books.[YSaerTTEW443543]
The difference between “I did this work already” and “I have done this work already”:
“I did this work already”. (You mean you did it in the past, emphasizing that you did it for some period of time somewhere).
“I’ve done this work already”. (You emphasize the completion (result) of action relating to the present moment, for example reporting the result to your employer, etc.).