What happened on September 11?

Hi,

Who of you is interested in finding out what exactly happened on September 11? I mean, there has been an official version of the events issued and promoted by the US government. But then, there are Americans like Dylan Avery, Korey Rowe and Jason Bermas who produced a film that raised a lot of questions. Do you think we will ever learn the truth about September 11?[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEIC listening, talks: One of the mayor’s personal assistants leaves voice message for journalist cancelling interview appointment[YSaerTTEW443543]

Hi Torsten,interesting topic…

I know one thing-We will never learn the truth about September 11 …

Hi Che,

How about trying to find out and examine some of the facts?[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEIC listening, talks: Owner of jewelry store advertises his diamond products[YSaerTTEW443543]

fahrenheit_9_11
Everyone should watch this movie…

if there are any CIA/FBI officials on the forum - they probably do know the truth, however it is very unlikely that they reveal it this way. If there are no such people here - i doubt that there can be found enough verifiable facts from trusted sources in order to construct the entire picture. This topic will be filled up with flame with people arguing and defending info from their trusted hyper links and some weird friends who maybe witnessed the event.
Any idea how to filter out the truth in this case?

Personally, I think we pretty much knew the truth, but then conspiracy theorists started muddying the waters.

Fahrenheit 9/11 should not be watched unless, immediately after, one watches the response movie Fahrenhype 9/11, which exposes the lies and cinematic tricks that Michael Moore used in his film. Almost nothing in Moore’s film is true, and it’s pretty obvious when you see his editing tricks and other deceptions. The second movie, Fahrenhype 9/11 was produced by a former advisor to president Clinton and a former mayor of New York – neither one Republican, and neither one a Bush fan – just because they and others were so outraged at all the made-up slander in the Michael Moore screed.

If you can’t get ahold of the movie, or the English in it is too fast, you can either get it in another language (I understand it’s available in German, for one), or you can get most of the most important information on this website:
davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

Moore is not a journalist. He’s basically a comedian, and he is well-known in the US for what outrageous lies he tells in his films. In “Bowling for Columbine” he gave people all over the world that in my state you can open a bank account and immediately receive a shotgun over the counter as an “appreciation gift”. The problem is that the scene was not real, and it was done by very convincing actors. To get any kind of gun legally, a person has to apply, be fingerprinted, have a police and FBI background check, and then if everything is okay, he has to wait four to six weeks before he can actually pick up the gun. However, Michael Moore’s staged lie was done so convincingly that people around the world actually believe it. Moore deliberately creates and spreads scandalous falsehoods of this type. But we have free speech in the US, so he gets away with it.

Hi Jamie, what about Loose Change? Is the film based on lies too? I mean, the Twin Towers did collapse after they had burned for a couple of minutes, didn’t they?[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEIC listening, talks: Sales executive leaves voice message for his co-worker asking him to get in touch with accounting department[YSaerTTEW443543]

I watched this movie in Georgian and I’m Georgian, so I understood everything what they were talking about…
I’ve seen how American Government looks after veterans of this war…I’ve seen forgotten guys, who left parts of their bodies in this war and I’ve seen what they are talking about Bush and the Government of US…
When Americans were supporting Saddam with weapons, was he a good guy ?after he didn’t let them to the oil, he became a bed guy and Americans decide to Bomb him and gain control…cause President’s family has Oil Business and Saddam didn’t let them to he’s Oil…
GBW needed a good reason to bomb Iraq and take Control under Iraqi’s Oil, so he wanted to show people that 9/11 was financed by Saddam ,but everyone knows that Arabian money has created Alqaeda, 15 of 19 plane hijackers were Arabians (none iraqees )and Arabians have invested about 1 Trillion dollars in the Economy of USA,they have billions of dollars in USA Banks and they are business partners and good friends of president bush’s family…
So Americans have to look for the answer in these Arabian Businessmen
GWB said many lies, that Saddam was supporting terrorists, there is the weapon of mass distruction in Iraq e.t.c I know I will never learn the truth, but I know George W Bush is a lier

fahrenheit_9_11
is a great movie…
I found out that Congressmen of the US vote for laws without reading it : ))))))))))))))))))
George W Bush is a deserter : ))))))))))))))))
Only 1 of 135 Congressmen send he’s son to “protect” he’s Country : ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
And many interesting things …

Well, there’s a movie in response to that one, and it’s called Screw Loose Change. Here is its website.
screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/top-lies-and-deceptions-of-loose.html

The Twin Towers did burn for a couple of minutes before they collapsed. I don’t know what the claim is in the movie you’re talking about, but that happened simply because of the architecture of the building. The planes hit high up. It took a couple of minutes for their impact and the fire to damage the upper floors enough to collapse them. The architecture of the buildings was such that every part was supporting every other part, and when the upper floors finally fell, the weight collapsed the floors under them. This was common knowledge, and was amply and clearly demonstrated before conspiracy theorists started playing games with the facts and making up “events” out of whole cloth.

Torsten, I’ve seen books and films that claim Hitler never died, and that he escaped to Brazil, where he was working in a laboratory to clone copies of himself to take over the world. The books and films “proved” this. Do you agree with this theory?

But you didn’t have enough information to sort out the lies from the truth, and you hadn’t seen entire, unedited footage of the events portrayed in the film. When the full footage is seen, unedited, it supports a completely opposite premise from the one Moore is trying to make you believe.

The one shown in the movie, who lost his arms, has sued Michael Moore, because he was used in the film without his permission, and he believed that the movie created a false impression of his opinion on the war. He never saw Michael Moore, and was never told he was going to be in one of his films. If you watch the second movie – which I’m sure you won’t – you can see him talking about this. You can read about him here:
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20060602/ai_n16461129

He got surgery, physical therapy, and a specially designed house to accommodate his disability. I don’t think they do that much for veterans in Georgia.

No, he wasn’t a good guy. The US was supporting him to weaken Iran, which was the worse guy. Learn your history.

Again, learn your history, and economics. You act like the US is some kind of petroleum heroin addict that will kill millions of people to “get oil”. That’s not actually necessary, because there are plenty of countries that willingly sell oil to the US, and only a minority of US oil comes from the Middle East anyway. Besides that, Bush and his family have been out of the oil business for many years.

You’ve got it all twisted around and backwards again. Go back to the articles on the rationale for attacking Iraq at the time, and you’ll see that oil wasn’t in the equation.

As I said, watch the second movie. You won’t, so I’ll send you to these websites, which you won’t read.
eppc.org/publications/pubID.2189/pub_detail.asp

Oh, yes. ALL the time! They never read them.

You also don’t know that in Fahrenheit 9/11, they ask a senator if he would send his own son to Iraq. He thought for a few seconds, gave a perfectly reasonable, polite answer, and then excused himself to go vote in the senate chambers. Moore cut out his answer, and just shows him thinking and then running into the senate. The senator would have been smarter just to ignore him, like the others before him did. Any American who watches the film can see that they recognize Michael Moore and are refusing to talk to him because they know their words and image will be distorted in some way. People in other countries, where Michael Moore is new, don’t pick up on this.

Che, what really puzzles me is that you have expressed admiration for genocidal dictators like Stalin, and genocidal assistants to dictators, like Che Guevara, but then you complain about GWB. Don’t you see at least some inconsistency in your beliefs?

Fahrenheit 9/11 is left-wing propaganda (as are most of Moore’s “documentaries”) aimed at criticizing Republicans and/or Republican/centrist values. Mr. Moore’s politics, quite frankly, would have been at home in the Soviet Union. But he lost that bastion of socialism/totalitarianism (great combo, the best ever obviously), so he’s pissed-off and on a rampage against free enterprise, the right to defend oneself, and the US’s role in the fight against terrorism.

Jamie was right: if you watch Fahrenheit 9/11, do yourself a favor and watch the response piece (think it’s Fahrenhype 9/11).

Terrorists who (of course) hated the USA lived here and learned to fly. They commandeered CIVILIAN flights and flew them into buildings. On one flight, heroes retook the plane and flew it into a field in Pennsylvania… before those nutjobs could complete their mission and fly it into the White House or Capitol Hill (etc. – it was apparently headed for Wash DC).

You know, this is morbid, but one of the good things about being in Iraq is that Iraq has become a magnet for terrorists, or those who would become terrorists (al Qaeda in Iraq, for instance). In that sense, we’re hunting them. At last check the terrorist/insurgent-to-US mortality rate was something like 25-to-1.

They hate us for Israel.

They hate us for oil (no idea why – it isn’t like we steal it. We pay good money for it. It’s called a business transaction. If you don’t want us to have it, don’t sell it to us.). I think they also hate (or dislike) their leaders on account of selling it to us.

But I think the major reason they hate us is that we’re successful, opulent (at least they think we’re opulent en masse), and we flaunt our values – openness, freedom, women can vote/speak/wear whatever they want to, etc. In short, cultural differences. We don’t live like they do and they can’t handle that.

I think the last is really the main reason.

This film is one of the winners of kan festival in 2004…
Films based on lies never win,on such festivals…
American supported Afghanistan , Iraq… then they bombed these Countries… It’s not a Computer game…It’s thousends of lifes…
I wouldn’t like to debate with you about this war… cause there’s no point…

I only advise to everyone,who has never seen this movie,watch it you you will learn much about 9/11 and the president of the US…

When did I express admiration for Stalin ? He was Georgian, so I say good things or nothing about Georgians when talking to strangers,like you…but he’s past and not dangerous, your president is really dangerous…
I’m sure there will be war between Christians and Muslims including whole world and it is gone start because of this evil, playing cowboy…

we’re not perfect. in another’s eyes there might be a lot of things to gripe about concerning the US. I know that the vast, vast, vast majority would not consider using violence against civilians to get across their political/social/cultural views. It’s okay to talk – in fact, that’s awesome. B ut when someone goes into a market with a bomb strapped to his back, I lose all respect for him and his cohorts. Someone like that needs to be stopped, and everyone he works with/for.

Honestly Tom, I laughed and said what?! when I first read this part of your comment. Mind you, I’m not being sarcastic or anything of the sort, you just took me by surprise by saying that.It’s like watching American Idol and one of the contestants said 'Simon was plain rude and Paula was just jealous".Hee.

I thought for a while of what you said and yes there are American values that people envy, for example how open an American father shows his affections to his daughter(and like the ones you said and etc etc). In Malaysia the Malays don’t do this but they do it in their own way. I can see the trend is changing now and some are embracing this culture which is a good thing.

I considered myself lucky because my father was british-educated. He might look like a taliban but he likes slow-dancing and he will drag us(all of his 6 daughters one at a time ) to slow dance with him when the mood strikes.

But I do not think anything is wrong with any of my friends who doesn’t have this. Their fathers might not be as affectionate as mine but I do see how fiercely their fathers love them.

My point is, it is not fair to say people are jealous of us just because they don’t have what we have. People live the way they do because they choose to thou some just don’t get to choose.

And yes, Tom your country is successful and opulent in almost every way but do you really think people hate your country just because of that?

Japan is also successful, but I don’t see people ranting on her.

And oh yes, Tom, please do not think I hate America or Americans, I just don’t like Bush like any other politicians.

p/s: I like you very much and I think you’re funny and any girl is lucky to have you as a boyfriend.

not just jealous, and some aren’t probably jealous at all. in such cases, it could be that they simply disagree.

Che
Winning awards doesn’t make something true… it just means it’s popular. It is popular to dislike President Bush, especially among liberals in this country and across the world (left of the American center). Those without the stomach for war – even when it is fought for good causes – just won’t accept it. Sometimes war is necessary, and most probably agree on that point, but once the body bags start to pile up, some lose heart in the fight.

As for Iraq and Afghanistan:

We helped Iraq fight Iran back in the 80s. Saddam took what we gave him to use against Iran and used it instead on his own people (chiefly the Kurds).

We helped Afghanistan fight the Soviet Union back in the 70s/80s (I think). Afghanistan gained independence in, I think, 1989 or so. At some point after that, a group called the Taliban took over.

We took down Saddam in Iraq (bad man).

We took down (still going on) the Taliban in Afghanistan (bad regime).

and Nina

I’d rather be like Paula than Simon (gender/sex aside).

hehe

Simon is honest… brutally so, at times. I don’t think he’s really mean at heart, but man, he surely does sound mean much of the time.

Tom, do you know this for a fact or is this what you believe? How can you tell the propaganda (any propaganda – left, right or whatever) apart from the facts? What we know for sure is that the towers were hit by two airplanes. We also know that both towers caught fire and collapsed. As a matter of fact, both towers came down in free fall. We also know that most of the jet fuel exploded upon the impact outside of the buildings. There have been a dozen or so cases in which skyscrapers caught fire, one was even hit by an airplane. However, none of those towers collapsed as a result of that. They burned for hours but their concrete/steel constructions didn’t tumble. Maybe I’m wrong but as far as I know the Twin Towers were the only towers that caught fire and collapsed within less than 15 minutes.

Before we go into any discussion about hate, oil, Israelis, Arabs, Iraq, etc. how about examining these facts? Who of us knows something about skyscrapers and statics? We assume that somebody was behind the attacks and depending on our political background or religion we also assume that we know who was behind the attacks. Yet, if we try to leave our political convictions behind and focus on physics and other facts, what does the situation look like then?[YSaerTTEW443543]

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We’re certain that the pilots were trained as pilots here in the US, Mohammed Atta among them.

The terrorists slipped through security and boarded those planes. Soon after takeoff, they commandeered the planes. Three of the four planes found their intended targets. The fourth was taken back by some brave passengers.

It goes against reason that anyone other than someone against the United States would do something like that. An American psychopath might try something like that, but most psychopaths do not want to kill themselves.

The fact that the act required full knowledge that this was a suicide mission means that we need to look at people who take their own lives while killing others (as in homicide/suicide bombers). Who does these things?

Isn’t the answer obvious?

As for the physics:

The planes were filmed crashing into the towers. There is no question that two large airplanes hit the towers. No missiles were fired. The planes did the damage, and that damage was enough to take the towers down.

There is little that can be said, 'cause we do not know the floor plans and material of the constructions. It is clear, however that both towers collapsed in the same manner, so one could assume that the only reasons of the disaster were two planes. Note, that it was not a usual building - it was a skyscraper, and though rather high floors were damaged, there was pretty large mass remaining right above. Nobody can say how deep the planes penetrated, but the blast could completely remove the large part of walls and damage all the others. Once a single floor falls, nothing can stop the chain reaction…