Is 'short-time work' a German term?

Hello Torsten,
Your question did not seem to be asking whether an American would understand a definition of the expression ‘short-time work’. Rather, you seemed to be asking whether the term is used in English speaking countries. You received some feedback about that from the US, which is an English speaking country.

I have now managed to find a definition online for ‘short-time working’, from what appears to be a British source. In view of your German-British link, Hamburg’s input and the link I found, I would say my previous assessment is valid: It seems to be a European term. How people might understand this expression outside North America or Europe is hard to say, however. With any luck, maybe we will get some additional information from another English speaking country – Australia, for example.


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Hi Amy,

Initially Jamie said that ‘short-time work’ is ‘Germlish’ which it clearly isn’t. I guess the concept of ‘short-time work’ doesn’t exist in the US which explains why you don’t use or know the term.[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEIC listening, photographs: A house[YSaerTTEW443543]

Hi,

Both Jamie and our ‘English Expert’ seem to suggest an expression not known in the USA (this means not known to them) has no validity. References to Germlish and Brusselese seem somewhat ‘insular’, dare I say with tongue in cheek! Surely the one country that has garnered expressions from all the variations offered by its huge immigrant population and given English a massive boost and enriched it beyond the dreams of my old friend, Bill Shakespeare, is the USA? And aside from that, isn’t the meaning of short time work screamingly obvious even to someone whose knowledge of English is verging on the diddley squat?

Alan

The concept exists, but it’s not called that, and the meaning of the term is not recoverable from its parts, which makes it a bad bet for international use.

As I’ve been saying, it’s not obvious. It sounds like it means a temporary contract, meaning that “short-time” refers to duration over weeks or months. However, it is supposed to refer to a reduced hourly schedule, which cannot be discerned from the expression itself. Since the term is opaque in that way, it should not be used if someone wants to be understood by most English speakers around the world.

Your use of the word “insular” is comical, because you seem to think that the usage known on an island containing only a minority of native English speakers should automatically be understood and accepted by the entire world. If that’s not an insular mentality, nothing is.

Hi Jamie,

The use of the word was meant to be comical but you seem sadly to have missed the whole point. It’s you and your pal ‘ESL Expert’ that I’m suggesting are being insular. But then why flog a dead horse?

Alan

Jamie, if the term is used by mass media such as the BBC why would it then only be understood by a ‘minority of native English speakers’? As far as I know, there are quite a few people who use the BBC as one of their news resources and thanks to technology even countries which technically are islands have been able to spread their ideas around the world so your reference to the UK being an island is a moot point.[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEIC listening, photographs: A presentation[YSaerTTEW443543]

For someone to call something short time, there must be a context of what is normal time! There is no way on Earth short time could mean temporary or a short term contract.

Note the use of “short term” as opposed to “short time” which in international English are two totally different things. Even the thought of “short term” must be with reference to something and normally this resides in either the context of the supplier or the customer.

Hole dug, coffin made ready, Jamie put in, lid placed on top. (Handing Torsten and Alan the last nails) … giggle… smile OK just kidding!

Most native English speakers either don’t receive or don’t listen to the BBC, and its terminology when referring to local affairs still reflects that of a local minority of English speakers. Similarly, most native English speakers would not imitate the BBC’s eccentric spelling pronunciation of foreign names.

What we were talking about here was not ALL the English spoken by the British or used by the BBC, but about one British slang expression that has not entered standard international English.

You’re making that same dumb mistake of assuming that everything British is standard and international. It isn’t.

“dumb mistake” !!!

I rest my case your lord!

Here you’re showing your insularity, Hammy.

The context of what is a normal time to work at a company or institution is an open-ended contract lasting years instead of weeks or months.

“Short time” could just as easily mean “short term” as “reduced hours”, because it’s simply vague and doesn’t refer specifically to an hourly schedule.

You’re so used to your local slang that you can’t see that it’s vague.

Where did I say that everything British is standard and international? Up until a few days ago I didn’t even know the term ‘short-time work’ so how I can claim it to be ‘international English’?

Besides, I think that the term ‘international English’ is at least as vague as ‘short-time work’.[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEIC listening, photographs: A student smiling[YSaerTTEW443543]

I am not making any mistake Jamie. You have made the mistake and are now trying a futile way to justify your earlier mistake.

Fact is: To any native English speaker, when spoken in the correct context, “short time working” will mean exactly the same the world over. And in the same way “a short term contract” will also be taken without ambiguity. However “short term working”, may raise some eyebrows! whereas “short term work” will not.

I have been working internationally for over 31 years and in all this time there has been no mistake by either American, Australian, British or any other native English speaking nationality when this term has been used.

In fact only recently while discussing the economy during my activities in France, the Ukraine, Spain and Italy, we have used this term and even these non-native however quite fluent persons have understood without problem what I have meant and also have used the words themselves without prompt.

This is not a fight you should take up at the moment Jamie, because the economic situation is generating many discussions where this term is being used regularly. You are up against much too much!

Torsten “there is no such thing as international English”! this is fact however, many would disagree, especially those using the term to make their product look better than others or more interesting to their target group. e.g. sales talk!

Hi Jamie,

How do you know that the term ‘short-time work’ is slang? Yes, as we have established the term is primarily used in Ireland and the UK and as you and Amy have told us would not be understood by Americans but how do you know it is ‘slang’?[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEIC listening, photographs: Loading a truck[YSaerTTEW443543]

Slang is actually an interesting subject.

When you think of “slang” what comes into your mind? Maybe an unofficial unacceptable way of talking? A use of language that should not be allowed? A use of language that should not be respected? A language that has no place in society, in business?

So often when people talk of slang it is in a degraded way, not deserving respect however, is this not, still a part of a language? From international marketing, advertising, through the board rooms of the world, in companies, in authorities, practically everywhere slang has a place.

Scholars of English and many other languages, although many detesting slang in context of vocabulary and grammar, proceed, use and accept slang in their everyday lives. If someone disagrees with a word, phrase or grammar construction, it is immediately defined as slang.

Personally I believe that there is a place for true grammar and vocabulary, and a place for slang, coining the term “true” in my own personal concept of its meaning, and that both are important for communication. Communication in 95% if not 99% of cases being the objective of the people learning a language.

So the question now is; if a phrase is used mainly in just one country, area, region such as the seemingly main point of this discussion, is this then slang? Region or area maybe, but between countries? So would this mean that trunk, bonnet, check, did he do it yet … and all those other American ways should be classed as slang?

And this brings into the story another interesting point. On what do we base the use of the word slang? For if British English is seen as slang, this must mean that another language form, possibly American English is the source of the language. And if American English could be thought of as slang, then that must mean UK (British) English must be the source of the language. For sure, if this were the situation, the source of a language (from where it spread to other lands) should really be the true language and derivatives should then be seen as slang. And finally did English spread from the US to the UK or from the UK to the US?

Interesting eh? Maybe people should think twice when broadly condemning any language they do not understand to the term slang in a way that could be taken as degraded or second, when in fact they may not really understand the term slang to start off with.

But everything is in the eye of the beholder and one must be able to openly accept without condemning if in fact they wish to learn a language.

Sorry, I felt like exercising my fingers this morning and write, I am sure it will be good food for those searching for grammatical imperfections … let the slaughter of poor old Rob begin …. Smile.

Here is a reasonable definition of slang…

slang, vernacular vocabulary not generally acceptable in formal usage. It is notable for its liveliness, humor, emphasis, brevity, novelty, and exaggeration. Most slang is faddish and ephemeral, but some words are retained for long periods and eventually become part of the standard language (e.g., phony, blizzard, movie). On the scale used to indicate a word’s status in the language, slang ranks third behind standard and colloquial (or informal) and before cant. Slang often conveys an acerbic, even offensive, no-nonsense attitude and lends itself to poking fun at pretentiousness. Frequently grotesque and fantastic, it is usually spoken with intent to produce a startling or original effect. It is especially well developed in the speaking vocabularies of cultured, sophisticated, linguistically rich languages. Characteristically individual, slang often incorporates elements of the jargons of special-interest groups (e.g., professional, sport, regional, criminal, and drug subcultures). Slang words often come from foreign languages or are of a regional nature. Slang is very old, and the reasons for its development have been much investigated. The following is a small sample of American slang descriptive of a broad range of subjects: of madness—loony, nuts, psycho; of crime—heist, gat, hit, heat, grifter; of women—babe, chick, squeeze, skirt; of men—dude, hombre, hunk; of drunkenness—sloshed, plastered, stewed, looped, trashed, smashed; of drugs—horse, high, stoned, tripping; of caressing—neck, fool around, make out; of states of mind—uptight, wired, mellow, laid back; the verb to go—scram, split, scoot, tip; miscellaneous phrases—you push his buttons, get it together, chill, she does her number, he does his thing, what’s her story, I’m not into that.
Nonstandard vocabulary of extreme informality, usually not limited to any region. It includes newly coined words, shortened forms, and standard words used playfully out of their usual context. Slang is drawn from the vocabularies of limited groups: cant, the words or expressions coined or adopted by an age, ethnic, occupational, or other group (e.g., college students, jazz musicians); jargon, the shoptalk or technical terminology specific to an occupation; and argot, the cant and jargon used as a secret language by thieves or other criminals. Occupying a middle ground between standard and informal words accepted by the general public and the special words or expressions of these subgroups, slang often serves as a testing ground for words in the latter category. Many prove either useful enough to become accepted as standard or informal words or too faddish for standard use. Blizzard and okay have become standard, while conbobberation (“disturbance”) and tomato (“girl”) have been discarded. Some words and expressions have a lasting place in slang; for instance, beat it (“go away”), first used in the 16th century, has neither become standard English nor vanished.

Hi,

Jamie wrote:

.

Another sweeping generalisation without foundation, I fear.

Alan

It might also come from American entrepreneurs like Scott Halford who write articles like this one: Are you a goal getter?[YSaerTTEW443543]

TOEIC listening, question-response: Have you seen my briefcase?[YSaerTTEW443543]